What were the odds?

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by DostThouHaveMilk, Jan 24, 2008.

  1. DostThouHaveMilk

    DostThouHaveMilk New Member

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    Pretty good apparently. Though it doesn't make sense to me...lol

    I finally mamnaged to contain my William {4 year old Boer/Saanen buck} this past breeding season. Usually I trusted him too much and he would take advantage of that trust and get out and breed does...usually his daughters.
    I did not, however, keep as tight a leash on my Nubian bucks, so I ended up with quite a few more does bred to Nubians than I really intended.
    The end of August this past year Rudy (my polled Nubian buck) got out on two occassions one week apart. It appeared he had bred one of his young polled daughters that first week. But her due date came and went...by quite a bit. However, I felt a fetus in her so kept her at that milking barn despite cramped space. The second time he got out another of his polled daughters was in heat the following day. Our Boer buck, Bo, got out that day but was not with the group that doeling was in when I went down (that half of the herd was out browsing and Bo was breeding Hilde). She was bred, no doubt about it, but to whom?
    So it appeared I had a strong possibility of two polled to polled breedings of father to daughter. :bang
    Two nights ago, I put both does in a split pen, just in case. They had both sacked up quite a bit the day prior and I didn't want to risk either FF kidding with the main group.
    Dad called me at 1:30AM yesterday morning and I hear this goat screaming in labor. It was Legacy (the doe I had due the 15th). I missed the delivery, but since it was only one it didn't matter. It was a doe. I got down there...wouldn't you know, with all the possible combinations...it was a polled doe. Both Rudy and Legacy are Pps. Not only was it a polled doe, but it appears to be homozygously polled because it also appears to be a hermaphrodite...our first one born here that I know of. It is pretty obvious. Thank goodness! No wasting time trying to decide if it would ever breed or not. So selling it for meat won't be too hard.
    But what are the odds? The odds of getting a polled offspring out of that breeding were pretty darn good, but to get a polled female? Fewer odds...but even better yet a homozygously polled female that ends up being a hermpaphrodite? Come on.... :sigh

    The other polled doeling did settle to my BoBo and delivered a buckling yesterday morning...unassisted and with no one in attendance but the other goats and the cats, with the cows listening on, I'm sure. That kid is not polled. lol Very good dam lines there.

    I'll get pictures to add today.
     
  2. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

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    Well, if nothing else, we'll all get a cool pic out of it...for our ever increasing "portfolio of freaks" or "hall of horrors"....we should have a "hideous freaks of nature sticky". One for the goats on here and one for the forum members :crazy
     

  3. Melissa

    Melissa New Member

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    soooo... is this a good thing or bad? :help2
    were you wanting a breedable polled doeling or were you going to cull any kid born anyway?
    can't wait for pict's

    -Melissa
     
  4. DostThouHaveMilk

    DostThouHaveMilk New Member

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    It's a mighty good thing, though I was hoping for a buck kid...
    I worry slightly about someone buying her at auction when she is shipped with the market wethers. I'll probably send a note that she is a hermie to the local auction but the slaughter goats usually end up heading further east to other auctions and I won't have any control over there with her labeling....
     
  5. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

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    Exactly why folks should not buy breeding stock at the auction. And if they do it's "buyer beware".
     
  6. Melissa

    Melissa New Member

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    ahh. gottcha. why not butcher her yourself? this young, she/he'd be miiighty tender! ;)

    -Melissa
     
  7. ellie

    ellie New Member

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    There are really a lot of herds breeding polled to polled without getting more hermaphrodites than if breeding horned to horned...just by way of saying the assumption might not be valid. If it were my goat, I'd be as suspicious of the father to daughter breeding as being the culprit...or not. Everyone repeats the "conventional wisdom" but that begs the question of why some herds do not see the predicted problem. And just fyi, all the original Nubian imports were polled. Had to have been a lot of polled to polled breedings since there was little else.

    I just find it all curious!

    Ellie
     
  8. DostThouHaveMilk

    DostThouHaveMilk New Member

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    We have just the one polled buck and really that is all I ever plan to have at one time. I love having polled does...more chances for not having to burn heads. lol
    With the Punnet squares the way they fall, getting a homozygously polled female really ought to be a pretty low occurance, just ironic that we get a single kid out of our first ever polled to polled breeding that happens to be polled, a doe and probably a hermaphrodite....
    The father to daughter thing was not a good thing. I'm hoping his other daughter he likely bred delivers bucks if they arrive being out of him instead of William. She's due tomorrow as well. Not polled in this case. Thank goodness.

    With Rudy I was able to find Nubians in his lineage from the late 60-early 70s that were polled, but none registered as polled between then and his sire.... Thanks to the wonderful new genetics set up with the polled goats highlighted. I *love* that feature!
     
  9. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

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  10. ellie

    ellie New Member

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    Hi Diane,

    I'm not ignoring you, just getting some information together from people who actually breed polled to polled. Science can be wonderfully helpful (that was my university major) but not all scientific "fact" translates to the real world. I'll post some additional information soon as I get it all compiled. Interesting stuff, tho, isn't it?

    Ellie
     
  11. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

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    Yes it is, Ellie. I love genetics and freaks and stuff. I was an animal science major (pre-vet) back in the 70s, probably why I forgot everything, and had a lot of science for nursing. But I HATE chemistry and physics and stuff like that, love the life sciences though. I'm a little behind the times, I try to keep up but usually follow my own path and interests.
     
  12. ellie

    ellie New Member

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    Ok, Diane, just a few comments from three people doing polled to polled breeding. Just interesting stuff...and yes, it can happen. So can any number of other possible culling problems. The hazards of breeding goats!

    "The numbers certainly aren't there to support that number/percentage. There is no *credible* data about polled/polled breedings. I personally have NOT had anywhere near those disastrous numbers. More from horned/horned. Few at any rate, but certainly more from horned/horned (which are a vastly greater number however by comparison)."

    "I haven't done a polled x polled breeding for quite a while now..Only because I have a hard time finding high quality polled Toggenburg bucks, the breed I have the most experience with. What I did find was that I did not have nearly the high incidence that you suggest (12.5%).
    However,
    A few things that I will throw out to you -
    1) There are 3 types of polled heads
    2) There are intersex goats from horned x horned matings
    3) I have had more problems with apparent male kids than buck kids but that was years ago with one particular polled buck and his polled sons
    4) Most breeders are afraid to do the polled x polled matings because of reported "old wives tales"
    5) Did you know that in order for Toggenburgs to be registered in this country in the beginning that they had to be long haired, have wattles and be polled?
    6) I am pretty sure that the polledness in Alpines, Saanens and Toggenburgs is different than the polledness in Oberhaslis which are different that the polledness in Nubians. I know there are polled Nigerians but I have not had any experience with them."

    "Someone missed something in the translation :) I had a hermaphrodite doe
    born last spring from a non-polled to non-polled breeding. I'm having her
    karyotyped to see what the reason is. This is just for my personal interest
    and will probably be included in an article I'm writing. I accept that the chance of one fourth of the does (12.5% of all kids) born from a Pp X Pp breeding may be intersex."

    Best wishes to all of us!!!

    Ellie
     
  13. coso

    coso Guest

    I don't understand. There are scientific studies to back this theory up plus "old wives tales" which are usually based on real world observation, and we are supposed to ignore both?
     
  14. ellie

    ellie New Member

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    I think the point of those comments is that the science might not translate exactly to real world numbers, and that the wives tales create a somewhat irrational fear of results that are actually rare and would promote loss of some remarkable genetics for very little risk.

    Ellie
     
  15. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    In most everything in Nubians I can attest that the science doesn't translate into real world on the farm information. I 'argue' with Karen Christensens book learned info all the time that although it may say this in a book it certainly doesn't work on the farm...take our hypocalcemia info we know. Vicki