What is the correct answer to Purebred vs American Nubian

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by rg1950, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. rg1950

    rg1950 New Member

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    I had a buyer ask me the other day, what is the difference in an American Nubian and a Purebred Nubian? Being fairly new to "registered" nubians, I told him the paperwork says "AN" on American Nubians and N on a purebred. What would be the best answer to this question? We have been working with nubians for 2 1/2 years but started with mainly all unregistered stock. Now that we have moved to mostly registered, I have noticed the paperwork has "AN" on some and "N" Thanks for your answers.
     
  2. Little Moon

    Little Moon New Member

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    I really hope that Vicki jumps in and explains this - I know she will do a better job than I will, but here goes.


    Purebred Nubian - all generations on record are purebred - the ancestors are in the original herd book, prior to closing.


    American Nubian - somewhere along the line, one of the dams was a recorded grade or native on appearance. Once you have AN blood involved in a breeding all subsequent breeding's will be AN.

    Some people do not care which their animals are - American or Purebred. Others care deeply. I have heard that it is much easier to sell a Purebred, and you can command a higher price. I have both, and haven't tried to sell anything.

    I hope this helps, and I hope Vicki joins in.

    Anne
     

  3. Odeon

    Odeon New Member

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    Anne pretty much summed it up! MOST Nubian breeders that I know are totally purists! The word "American" is like blasphemy! There tends to be a HUGE price difference for what you can sell a purebred for vs. an American. At least here in the west.

    With other breeds, it doesn't seem to be as much of a concern, especially with LaManchas, but the LM herbook is still open, so you can eventually breed to purebred status.

    Ken in Idaho
     
  4. paulaswrld

    paulaswrld New Member

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    Here in TN, KY, GA it only seems to make a slight price difference. My highest scoreing LA doe's were my two Americans this year...next to a couple of really pricey purebreds that I own. Not to mention, they do the best in the showring, and the milkstand. I do however, charge more for my purebreds but only 50 -150 more per kid. And, the 150 more has nothing to do with PB vs AM it is the pedigree.

    Paula
     
  5. rg1950

    rg1950 New Member

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    That did make alot of sense. I knew they were more because we have both and our purebred nubians did cost us more. It was worth it, they are all beautiful, graceful, and very friendly! Thanks for all your answers!
     
  6. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    Interestingly enough, many Purebred Saanen breeders have crossed to the "dark side" (NO, not Sables! :) ), and are now incorporating the Americans into their bloodlines. They want the size, the vigor and the milk production. A Purebred/American cross is a very nice cross. Our kids out of Two Ceders Victor have all been extremely nice (Purebred buck).

    The downside to this is that pretty soon you won't be able to get Purebred stock except out of a semen tank.

    Camille
     
  7. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    When herd books closed there were a heck of alot more Nubians in purebred than most breeds, and in some breeds like Obies they closed the herdbook without enough, especially without enough quality.

    Tara it's the same as a Purebred boer and a Fullblood boer. Purebred boers have who knows what in the pedigree...Fullbloods go back to the originial embryo's brought into Texas. So in Nubians American is the same as your purebred boers, and Purebred Nubians are the same as Fullblood Nubians. Biggy for most who ask is that they do not want boer in the nubian blood, and since it's just the breeders word for it, no DNA, no photos of ancestors in the grading up herdbook, Amercian's sell for less because of the way ADGA runs the grade program. In no other livestock would a grading up program be ran without saftey checks to verify that the next generation is what it is supposed to be. Let alone even the breed it is being graded into.

    Amercian bucks are really hard to sell to anyone but new people who don't get it, or to others who have Amercians...since using an American buck over your purebred does makes those kids American and their kids American for life.

    In Texas, milkers go for the same price no matter what as long as she is healthy, milks and is milkstand ready. But kids, and for that purebred price you have to have Purebred does, which is substantially more money than amercian around here.

    I don't see it all as a snob factor, I see it as protecting the bloodline. We have a hard enough time in Nubians breeding consistancy we don't need more mongrels added to the herd book :)

    And American's should milk better they usually come out of swiss breeds :)

    And American doe won nationals recentaly, what does her buckling sell for? Vicki
     
  8. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    When I bought my Alpine doe back in the spring....I had a choice of American or French. I went with the American as I liked everything about her better. I'm not really sure how far back that the skunk got in the wood pile with this doe....but I'm sure glad he did. :D

    Whim
     
  9. rg1950

    rg1950 New Member

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    When we first started with goats, we didn't know anything about registrations, pedigrees, purebred vs American, etc... Since we have gotten goat educated, we have decided not to purchase anything but purebred. We are planning on breeding a couple of our american nubians with our registered SA Buck for some nuboerian mixes we can sell to people wanting cheap unregistered goats for milking. I have had alot of requests for milkers from people who don't want to pay the price for the registered ones. They just want the goat for the milk. One of our best milkers is a nuboerian mix. She was in the herd with the first few goats we bought when we first started in Feb 2006. We did have two twins that are nuboerian mix, and both gave us close to a gallon a day after freshening their first time. We sold one of them when we added 6 purebred nubians to our herd this year (actually 7 counting our breeding stud). We are planning to stay with purebreds for now on due to the resale value. All goats cost the same amount of time and money to take care of, but we get alot more for them at resale time if they are purebred, as we have seen from buying and selling goats. I wish we had educated ourselves when we first started, but we started this business buying "lawnmowers" and one was an unregistered purebred nubian (the momma to our twin nuboerians). We learned about milking and the benefits of raw goats milk and started milking our nubian. We were hooked after that (on goats and milk)and started buying nubians left and right for the milk. Now we are going to start selling unregistered and registered milkers with the option of a milk stand. We have learned how to make our own milkstands (not hard to do, directions are on the web). Thanks everyone for all your knowledge. I hate or someone to buy a goat and I can't answer their question. Kind of makes me look dumb and uneducated with goats. :blush I want to sound smart and educated. After all, if I bought from someone and they could not tell me the difference, I would be questioning their knowledge of it.
    Tara Green
    Green Acres Goats Farm
    www.greenacresgoatsfarm.com
     
  10. Little Moon

    Little Moon New Member

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    Tara,

    That is a great idea - to sell milkstands. You are on to something with that idea. I have had goats for 7 years and most days I still feel like a newbie. They are constantly teaching me something. ;)

    Good luck,
    Anne
     
  11. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    I bought two first fresheners last year. One is a purebred, the other American. They are my two nicest goats. The American gives more milk than the purebred. Both does have champions in their pedigree. I'm keeping the buck kid out of the American to breed to the purebred's doeling. Right now, I'm more concerned with correct conformation than what the papers say. Kathie
     
  12. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    """Right now, I'm more concerned with correct conformation than what the papers say. Kathie""""

    I totally agree.....and I've 'til yet been able to get a drop of milk out of those papers.....and if you are gonna call them "dairy goats" then in my opinion, they should be great milker's first.

    I always hate for somebody trying to sell me a goat to say "just look at these papers, and all those champions".....and then try to sell me a goat who ain't worth the powder and lead it would take to shoot her.


    Whim
     
  13. rg1950

    rg1950 New Member

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    Anne,
    The milk stand idea is simple. We wait until Lowes has lightly damaged wood on clearance and we buy it in bulk. We store it in our hay shed for building projects this winter. After spending about $40 for material, we built our stand. You can get the directions for building one here http://fiascofarm.com/goats/milkstand.html. We modified ours a little. We added about 8 inches in length and used a different type of latch mechanism. We are hoping it will be a good profit margin. Takes about 2-3 hours to build. Sell for around $125-$150. The ones we will be selling will be a fold up kind for easy storage. Ours is light enough that one person can carry it, but sturdy enough to accomodate our biggest goat, Dusk (we call her Mama). She weighs about 250lbs. To see pics: http://www.greenacresgoatsfarm.com/milkroom.htm

    Tara
     
  14. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I bought two first fresheners last year. One is a purebred, the other American. They are my two nicest goats. The American gives more milk than the purebred. Both does have champions in their pedigree. I'm keeping the buck kid out of the American to breed to the purebred's doeling. Right now, I'm more concerned with correct conformation than what the papers say.
    .....................

    Talking Nubian now....

    Maybe more for OT, but I will start this here. There is no way there isn't a better doe to get a buck out of than that American. Folks do stuff like this and then complain about not being able to sell kids. You will likely have unsold bucklings out of all these Americans from this time forward, unless you don't disclose to new people about the Amercian Nubian loss of sales...everytime I help a new herd start they have old American nubians around like Tara, in which prices are soo low in them they eventually go all purebred.

    I would never shoot my herd in the foot like this. Most don't have good enough stock to keep a buck out of their herd for many years, the improvements you make using homegrown bucks are usually nill. One champion unless the doe herself is one and even then unless she comes out of this same quality, does not a brood doe make.

    I really hope you rethink this. Vicki
     
  15. trunkbranches

    trunkbranches Junior Member

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    Ken, do you know where the Nubian breed came from? Was it a cross from somewhere else?

    You did sum it up pretty good, though.
     
  16. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    Just want to add a comment (from a Saanen breeder , where we don't care if they are Purebred or American so long as we get a highly productive, well-built goat ;) ).

    Many many folks are not selling breeding stock to the "Elite" folks - many are homesteader types. Why not breed and retain your more productive and stronger/American Nubians to sell to other folks who appreciate the higher butterfat and floppy ears, without the big price tag to purchase such an animal? Start a grass roots revolution!!
     
  17. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    I still have both American and Purebred Nubians. This fall, I finally did sell my last American buck - but it was not because of his being an American. He simply was not crossing with some of my does the way I expected him to. The folks who bought him are homestead breeders. His dam is one of my best does. For the first time, I bred him back to his dam before selling him. I'm hoping for a doeling who is as nice or better than the dam. I also sold a Purebred buck - to the meat buyer. He was wild and hard to use and also did not produce the quality kids I'd hoped for considering his genetics. Of my 14 Nubian does, 6 are Americans, 8 are Purebred. I also have 1 American La Mancha and 5 Recorded Grades. As for sales around here, I actually got the most money for two of the Recorded Grades I sold this year. They were a La Mancha that was graded up from a NOA champion I bought years ago and a mostly Alpine doe out of champion lines. The reason I got what I did for them is that they were two of my top milk producers. Around here, most does and doelings are bought by folks who want milk. They do not show and most don't even bother to transfer the goats into their names. I still go by what I believed when this thread was first started - I retain the goats with the best conformation over lesser quality ones with purebred papers.
     
  18. Starla

    Starla New Member

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    this is very interesting to me! being new to dairy goats, I am learning so much! It had me curious as to what I have. I pulled papers and ALL of my 100% registered Nubians are PB! I was shocked! but what is most interesting to me is, that my best milker this year, who is a FF, is a Nubian/LaMancha! Her sire was a PB Nubian, I haven't looked up anything on her dam. I only have one PB Nubian Doe that is in milk and she is also a FF and gives less than any of my milking Doe's! All the others are too young (7 months and under) I will know more next year. I love all the interesting things you can learn on the forum! things I would never think to research!
     
  19. confederatemule

    confederatemule New Member

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    I have two ADGA Nubian does. Where do I find "PB" or "AN" on the ADGA registration papers?

    Mule