what do copper deficient goats look like?

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by prairiegirl01, Jul 22, 2008.

  1. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

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    Sara, how would be the best way to get an accurate test that would show the real status of the herd?

    Do we send in any liver? Or would it be from a young wether or an older wether? Does it matter?
     
  2. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    You of course would want to use a doe who has lived on your program for a few years. Does who are heavy milkers, like Sara's, would of course be who you should test, they would have much higher copper needs and would show you your true status. Young animals would have little to no value, especially a wether who is not making sperm or anything that would stress his system.

    Blood testing doesn't work because they don't store copper in their blood.

    The "I haven't read all the way through saanendoah.com" just irritates me to no end. It's some of the ONLY goat testing done on thousands of goats, not sheep not cattle, not BS that is passed around the internet as gospel...sites have now copied Joyce's information and are pretending it is their information. Read her site before it goes down and all the links are gone..save the information it is invaluable to us. Really should be a pamphlet that ADGA puts out.

    We have tried to explain that you can't use water to give things into the rumen, or pull their head up passed their shoulders, it puts whatever you are giving into another stomach chamber. Because someone does it that way does not make it right, it in fact makes it wrong. Is the person you are getting advice from Joyce? or is it someone who has done one liver biopsy to know what they are doing is right?

    So it's not offense we take, it's exhaustion.

    Do it right, if I lived in Minnesota and I knew Sara bolused, yes I would shirt tail off her info, but I also would test the first goat I had to put down. I would bolus correctly and then if I wanted to test the water bolus theory or the copper sulfate in water theory I would do it to someone who wasn't valuable to my herd. After you have read saanendoah.com you will see why all these questions about it are moot, she answers more than you could ever need to know on there.

    All we can do is tell you what we do, but passed that you have to take responsiblity for your own does. I don't want the responsiblity or the blame when there is problems.

    Vicki
     

  3. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

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    "Young animals would have little to no value, especially a wether who is not making sperm or anything that would stress his system."

    Well, that's why I asked. We butcher wethers every year, but they are younger.

    We only have 20 or so goats here so am trying to figure out how we can do this.

    Just supposing, if you use the liver from a animal that is sick and seems likely to die. Is that liver biopsy worth anything?
     
  4. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    Jo,

    You are fairly close to the U of M (much closer to the U of M than I am). Why don't you do a liver biopsy on a live animal since you have no other good candidates?

    Sara
     
  5. NubianSoaps.com

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    I wouldn't do a liver biopsy on someone chroncially ill that the drugs would have effected the liver...but pnemonia or entero something like that....I have used one who we put down for age, and another who was dieing right after kidding and 2 bucks now. Bab's was slated for last year when she blood tested pregnant :)

    I just know in the back of my mind anything I put down who is older and been here awhile, I open up, take out the liver, put a slice in the freezer to send in when I have time. Vicki
     
  6. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife New Member

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    Also what Vicki said, be aware that illness or stress will cause different results. On our place we tested a young buck (10 months) and a 6 yr old doe. Both had been bolused. One tested on thehigh range of normal. The other tested unbelievably low... So test more than once if you can from diffferent animals and take the whole picture into account.
     
  7. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

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    "Why don't you do a liver biopsy on a live animal since you have no other good candidates?"

    That's what I'm thinking we are going to do, but I want to do it right. I have a doe who is going in the freezer this fall so if we do it she'll be the one. I was just wondering what animal in what stage of life, would give us the best indicator of their status.

    Would anything that we do screw it up? Changing feed or something?

    Vicki, that's a good idea! I shall have to copy that.


    Do you do biopsies every year to keep track of things or after a while do you let them go?
     
  8. NubianSoaps.com

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    I don't have adult deaths every year. My herd since 2001 is relatively young...Bab's was going because of not being able to get the lard butt bred :) Knock wood we don't have alot of mortality here. I would want to redo your liver biopsy on another goat if you had a major change of minerals, water, moved to a new farm etc... vicki
     
  9. Rose

    Rose New Member

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    OH MY GOSH! I am so glad I came back to read this thread. Don't pull their heads up? :/

    I was so proud that I'd gotten brave and bolused. Now, I find out I did it wrong.

    How do you get it in if you don't lift their heads? HELP!
     
  10. prairiegirl01

    prairiegirl01 New Member

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    Wow, do I feel misunderstood. I only just found the Saanendoah information yesterday--I DID in fact, read it all the way through today at lunch--it's not like I'm trying to ignore all the wisdom out there, just doing my best as fast as I can. Based on what I read, it makes sense to treat my micro-herd for copper deficiency. Can one use a half dosage to boost copper without running the risk of overdosing?

    Also, I have ONE adult doe (2 yrs.) and ONE adult whether (2 yrs.) and one buckling. A tiny herd compared to most of you. We milk for our own use and not much else. No one is likely to need to be put down in the near future, so it would have to be a live biopsy. I am still getting my mind around all this. I would have to travel with my doe or whether to get the biopsy and I don't even know how much it is or what it entails. Sara, how do I go about this?

    Is there anything I can/should do short of the liver biopsy?

    I've asked around a few of the small local goatkeepers and I don't know anyone personally who boluses. And, there is a wide variety on the quality of minerals used. Some use mineral blocks, others the Purina minerals.

    Vicki, sounds like I misunderstood your comments about water and head-raising too--I'll use the bolus gun and try to keep heads level? Down?
     
  11. jimandpj

    jimandpj New Member

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    My first goats had many of the outward symptoms of copper deficiency. But I didn't have any livers to biopsy, and wasn't about to bolus without having that information.

    So I did some research, and discovered that raisins were very high in copper. Since I have a small herd, I would give the goats raisins as treats. Those with the worst symptoms got more than others (a handful at each milking). After several months, my copper deficiency outward symptoms disappeared. No more fish tails or reddish coats on black goats. Adding raisins was the only part of my management I changed.

    Since I didn't do any liver biopsies before or after, I do not know if the raisins actually changed their copper levels or not. But I do know that the outward symptoms disappeared.

    Fortunately, I have not had any adult deaths. But when I do, I will have the liver biopsied, and will know whether or not to start bolusing. Until then, I stick with the raisins.

    PJ
     
  12. Rose

    Rose New Member

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    I posted a reply (I think) that went into the ether.

    I really need help here. The bolus devices that look like a plastic stick won't hold the smaller capsule. I don't know how to administer the bolus using that type gun and restrain the goat and not lift her head.

    Please advise.
     
  13. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I just put a glob of probiotics onto it and it glues it to the 'stick' :) Peanut butter or anything like that would work...just don't jam it down into it or you won't get it out. Vicki
     
  14. A very obvious copper deficient goat;
    [​IMG]
    We had had Giselle less than a year. This photo was taken in March. She had delivered the twins behin her in November. It was a long hard winter and I hate admitting things got this bad, but they are a good pictorial with regards to Copper deficiency. She was not the only one showing strong signs of copper deficiency. Most of them that showed the outward signs were animals brought into the herd. We were seeing thick sacks at birth as well.

    Giselle about 3 months after bolusing;
    [​IMG]
     
  15. prairiegirl01

    prairiegirl01 New Member

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    Thanks for the additional information. I appreciated the photos of Giselle--what a beautiful girl she is now! And the tip about raisins--who knew! I also thought I could add a small scoop of mineral (TBSP or so) to what my doe is eating on the milk stand since she doesn't seem that interested in the loose minerals I have out for them all the time. I can do that for the whether as well. The buckling is still a concern since he was born with that wierd tumor along his spine. He seems perfectly healthy otherwise. A friend of mine who is a dealer for Dynamite minerals says she knows of someone who used copper supplements to reduce/eliminate tumors, but Mocha isn't eating enough grain yet to get much down him that way. He's also suspicious of anything new--maybe I can get him to eat it on cut up apples and carrots and raisins! I'll try supplementing before I take the next steps with bolusing.

    Thanks, again.

    Chris
     
  16. Katarina

    Katarina New Member

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    How much does it cost to do a liver biopsy?
     
  17. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    OK I just answered this right before kidding season started...cause I called and asked where we were sending it and how much..I know it was less than $100 even with her shipping it because I didn't think it was expensive. How is that for an answer :) Vicki