What are these symptoms of?

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by Rence, Sep 19, 2008.

  1. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    As a side note: tetracyclines are not supposed to be given to pregnant anyone (including humans) or those still growing, because it interferes with teeth and bone growth and formation, even in utero. That's why it turned teeth yellow. It used to be given to teenagers for acne yes, but now it's not because of those reasons.
    .......................

    Sorry this is simply not relavant in our goats, but hopefully with better management that you will learn here you won't have reason to use it anymore anyway.

    I wormed everyone with Ivomectin and Safeguard (and will do safeguard again for two more days for tapeworms). I gave Mary 2.5mL of Vitamin B complex. And I separated the does from the bucks.
    .......................

    What worms doe you have that Ivermectin is killing? Tapes do not cause anemia, in fact in adult does cause no loss at all.

    Part of the problem is, I didn't believe in medicating (worming) without an apparent reason, and the first time I wormed it was only after fecals were run because I was adamant that I should be using the right wormer for the right bug.
    ...............................

    But you didn't have the worm/parasite identified by the fecals, and you use wormers that are known not to work on the blood sucking worms that do cause anemia in goats. Plus when you do worm with something that actually gives you a clear fecal of the blood sucking worms, it will take months before their blood level is back and high enough for them to be bred, or to stay warm during the winter.

    As to grain, I use Co-Op sweet feed. I used to use Dumor. Any suggestions? I read somewhere that horse sweet feed is better?
    .................................

    I wouldn't read there anymore. The amounts of molasses in sweet feeds are there to mask the inferior products in feeds, if you took the molassas out your goats or horses would not touch the powdery chaffe and floor sweepings in sweet feeds. What do oats cost in your are per 50 and corn? Now your tell me they can afford to mix grain at these prices together, add minerals, molassas and the rest of the tag and charge less than grain? It's because there is no grain in it.

    We haven't even gotten you to minerals. So important in the south to have really adequate copper supplementation in your loose minerals. Molassas also block absorption of calcium and copper, which gives you even worse worm burdens because your goats are not only stressed from the move, stressed from being under weight, likely have some intestinal damage from having cocci when they were young (did you have problems with diarrhea with them when they were younger?) and nutritionally stressed from low copper and calcium levels.

    Pull the kids you raised from the buck pen, let them live seperately, lute them to abort them if they are bred, feed them good (alfalfa hay or alfalfa pellets) until the anemia is gone and they are 100 pounds and then put them in with the buck.

    Until you have a freeze the same eggs and larve that are in your pen today will be there in 3 weeks. Most vets know little about pasture parasites, let alone small ruminants. Pasture rotation to most is about letting the grass bounce back, not parasites.

    There is a ton of good basic information on the site. Most of us started exactly where you are now, you really have to shake out the old bad information you have and replace it with sound management. Learning from those doeing it is of course key. Because it's to expensive to have yearlings who are to small to be bred, to have anemia from worms or cocci when you could have used prevention. Getting fecals from vets who don't identify the worms or give you EPG's. Using feed that in the end could kill your bucks with urinary calculi. Vicki
     
  2. Rence

    Rence Guest

    28
    0
    0
    Vicky,

    I was told by one vet that the parasite count was "too high too count" and she finally gave up counting. She said it was "stomach worms and tape worms". She told me to worm with the Lavamisole and Safeguard. The other vet said there was a "moderate amount of parasites" but didn't give me a count. He said they had "stomach worms, tape worms and coccidia" and asked me about how they looked and were acting. He told me to use Safeguard and Cydexin and gave me a bottle of sulfa medication to put in their water. I've been worming with these things, and decided to switch to Ivermectin because I have been using the cydexin for a year and wanted to avoid resistance to the cydexin.

    They have never had diarrhea that I know of (I brought them home when they were three months old). They didn't have it ever with me, and their breeder said they didn't have it with her.

    I've already separated the bucks from the does.

    As to minerals, I use goat blocks from the Co-Op and they have them in their fields at all times.

    Soooo, I wanted to move my bigger does in their old field in a few months because it's closer to the house and has electricity in the barn attached, but will that be detrimental to them parasite-wise? Do I need to keep them in their new field until a "freeze" and what exactly does that mean? And a vet told me that goat problem parasites live though the winter, is that false as well?

    My oldest is due to kid in about three weeks. My fencing in this new bigger field is 7 strands of alternating hot and grounded wire...will the kids be okay with it, or should I move mama to one of the old pens for a few weeks (cattle panel and field fencing)? I actually prefer to move them to an old field, not because of the hotwire, but because they will most likely run under it and I don't want them out of their field because they will be prone to the neighbor's dogs.

    -Rence
     

  3. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    9,442
    1
    0
    All Vicki is saying is don't expect the old field to be completely rid of worms eggs unless you have a good hard freeze. But yes I am with you I would move them back to the old field with the better fencing for the little ones. Just stay on top of the worming and the cocci treatments or prevention by getting fecals run often and knowing what your need to worm for. Ivormectin's don't really work on warm weather worms. so save it for the winter. use your white wormer for tapes and cydectin for the rest then do another fecal ck in 10 days to make sure your getting them. Also you really really need to get LOOSE minerals rather than blocks as they (goats) do not do well on blocks. There are many threads on here abt minerals.
     
  4. Rence

    Rence Guest

    28
    0
    0
    Sondra, I just wanted to poke some more about the pasture because that first vet made it sound like it would be fatal to the goats if I didn't move them from pasture to pasture every six weeks. And I'm really really really trying to get as much information as I can.

    Just a review of today, plus more. This morning I wormed everyone with Ivormectin and Safeguard. I also gave Mary 2.5mL of Vitamin B12. The bottle said to give subq or IM, and I wasn't sure, so I gave subq. After I gave it, she was really quiet and went in the goat house to rest.

    This afternoon, I gave everyone vitamins (someone suggested it, co-op said it wouldn't hurt, I'm desperate, so I tried it). Mary came for the grain and vitamins, and started to nibble on grain and just stopped eating. She wouldn't touch the grain or vitamin pellets, even when I tried to coax her away from everyone else.

    But (here's another mistake), I remembered that I haven't put hay out since I moved them on Sept 1st. They nibbled on it back then just a little bit, but then left it and slept in it so I figured they weren't eating it with all the browse - they did this when they were babies: they ate browse and wasted all the hay. Then I remembered that they should always have free choice hay (maybe another bad piece of info?), so I brought a few blocks and they all started eating it, including Mary. Is not eating grain but eating hay significant?

    She's still quiet and to herself, she rests a lot, but as far as I can tell she still browses. She's lost a lot of weight and she's skinny.

    Eveyone is a 3 or 2 on the Famancha scores... I'll get some loose minerals tomorrow along with some cydexin...but please bear with me: aren't I worming too much right now?

    I still haven't figured out what to do about rations. I'm still working on that. I'm sure there's a thread somewhere about what everyone's feeding their goats so I'll do a search. I asked at the Co-Op and they said that either the dairy feed or the medicated feed would be fine, and are "good" and 16% protein.

    I still don't know how I let this get so out of control. I brought my first five kids home in November. In January I had fecals done on them. Four of them were totally clean, they didn't find one parasite. The fifth one had "hookworm", for which I was given Cydexin. Then alllll of a sudden, two months ago, they're "infested" with "stomach worms, tapeworms and coccidia" are sick, anemic and skinny. I feel stupid.


    -Rence
     
  5. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    9,442
    1
    0
    OK calm down and please don't feel stupid as we have all been there and done that. I don't know abt what that vet said on ratation of pastures as true or not but will tell you this much. Yes if you can rotate pastures it is a good thing and better than not being able to. Better yet is to rotate and put cattle in behind your goats as they clean up the eggs with thier eating practices. BUT I can't rotate pastures here never have and once you get a handle on the initial worm loads and fecal check regularly then you won't have a problem. Now this is what I do and not to say it is the right way but it works for me. All babies are put on preventative cocci meds which here I prefer demethox 40 % however we can't seem to get it this year so I am using corid at the doses in 101 every 21 days They are also on alfalfa pellets and medicated goat pellet

    Adults does I worm with cydectin 30 days prior to breeding. then at 100days bred and then the day of freshening I worm with cydectin and 10 days later with safeguard/valbazen or ivormec plus inbetween I do routine fecal checks and only worm when needed
    Adult bucks get wormed 30 days prior to breeding and then again in 6 mo or if needed by fecal checks
    babies get wormed for tapes monthly go read Vicki's post in 101 on breeding to birthing.
    As for feed my bucks only get alfalfa pellets except in rutt and /or working then they get some grain/pellet with AC in it for UC.
    Does get alfalfa pellets and grain only on the stand. Go read up on hypocalcimia by Sue Reith in Goat 101 abt feeding.
    everyone gets grass hay especially during the winter months with no browse
    Loose minerals.
    put out some Baking soda free choice Mary may just have an upset stomach.
    Remember anytime it rains you have another infestation of worms and usually you will need to worm again.
     
  6. Tim Pruitt

    Tim Pruitt New Member

    1,275
    2
    0
    Rence,
    I would say the number one enemy of goats is parasites. Other major enemies being dogs and pneumonia. There are contagious diseases that are killers too such as CL and CAE. These two diseases tend to be slow killers in comparison to parasites, pneumonia and dogs.
    Any way, back to parasites. I see you live in mid TN and that area will still need regular parasite treatments, especially certain times of the year. Dry desert conditions or places where there is heavy freeze will not need parasite treatment as much as the warmer, more humid South. The further South you go, the worse it gets.
    Heavy populations of goats, resulting in short grass is only asking for more parasite problems. Remember, goats are browsers rather than grazers and prefer to reach up for their food than reaching down. Forcing goats to eat short pasture is only asking for infestations of parasites and especially if overgrazing. It is important to keep all feed where it is not contaminated by feces. The same is true for hay, a feeder must be designed that the goat does not pull the hay down and step on it and then be forced (by hunger) to eat off the ground. Each time they do it only results in heavier parasite loads.

    As a rule of thumb, worm each goat when they kid, then worm again 10 days later. Skip a couple of months and repeat. I would recommend that you begin dosing with Cydectin orally (by mouth) and then repeat in 10 days. This will start breaking the cycle of the worms. You may need to do this for 3 months in a row until you get your worm loads down. Don't forget the kids... start them on parasite treatment by 4-5 weeks of age. They will also need treatment for coccidia. If you are seeing diarrhea in your adults because of parasites, the adult goat will need coccidia treatment too. Of course, using fecals as a tool will help you greatly in managing the parasites in your goats.
     
  7. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    9,442
    1
    0
    and listen to Tim as he know what he is talking abt !!
     
  8. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

    442
    0
    0
    Hi Rence.
    Sounds like some good advice going your way already. I just wanted to share with you that the fecal sample youre taking to the vet is probably going to give you bad info if you collect it a day before the test is done. It really should be submitted as close as possible to collection- like: watching the animal defecate, collect and take it to the vet is best. Old O&P samples arent reliable in people, either :) As one doctor I know tends to say, if ya gotta take a sample in later then "Ka-ka on ice is nice" (so OK, she's got weird sense of humor! but its memorable, isnt it?) so keep the sample cool or refridgerate until you take it in.

    I'd bet youve got a multifactorial issue going on- worms, cocci and an opportunity to improve your feeding program. that puts you in the same boat most of us started rowing in! :) Please dont kick yourself too hard, most of us have or are dealing with much the same issues. Kudos for jumping in here to get the info you need to improve things.

    I think youre on the right track getting a fecal run ASAP. I sugest you ask for the actual worms identified and the fecal counts when you get the results, then check back in here. I think you'll get better advice on the wormers to use, and most importantly, the doses to use. Tims advice above will likely do it, but in case your fecal shows something that needs an additional wormer added to it your vet may not know to tell you- but the members here will know.

    I strongly suggest you get some corid or DiMethox 40% and start the treatment on everyone ASAP, like tomorrow. cocci infections in goats is like Chrones in humans- it assaults the lining of the gut and affects nutrient absorbtion. Ever see nay oveweight pts that have had Chrones for amore tha a few years? Probalby wont- i can count the number on one hand (with fingers left over) in 35 yrs of nursing! The same thing happens with the goat guts. Can cause bad diarrhea- or just unthriftiness -or death. Direction for proper use of the ccci meds is in 101, if youre not sure then just ask here and we'll be glad to point you to them and answer questions about it (yes the doses are much higher than your vet will probalby suggest or the label reads- but they work!) I'd bet cocci are a big part of the unthriftiness youre identifying and you can worm till the moons blue and it doesnt kill cocci.

    Get a good goat mineral and put it out free choice. Definitely put out baking soda too. Get rid of the sweet feed, mix your last bag with bag of whole oats and when thats gone move to alfalfa pellets and whole oats, top dressed with calf manna and BOSS. Dry unbred yearlings probably dont need rain at all if they have good pasture/browse and free choice hay- but youre trying to play catchup here, so I think some grain isnt a bad idea once youve got their parasite problems under control. Free choice alfalfa pellets might be a good goal to get to over the next couple of weeks. I'd ask Vicki or one of our other experts to chime in and tell us if they think that last idea is OK for you to work toward.

    If those 50 lb does are pregnant I think you'll end up with train wrecks if you allow them to carry to term -even if they can. Now that youve got the bucks out, use lute to abort them. IMHO its safer for them in the long term. If you want to, you can rebreed this spring for fall babies and not miss the whole year if you can get them up in size and ready for it by then, which I think you can. If you need advice on how to do this, just ask. Lutalyse is a prescription med so you may want to get an Rx for it when you drop your sample off. I'd also recommend you get an Rx for Bo-Se and give each animal a shot of that too. It will help boost their immune system and make getting rid of the worms easier for them.

    I send all my Rx's to www.pbsanimalhealth.com, then order the meds there. Its just easier for me to keep them at one supplier and I use them since they are reasonable, quick and I can get just about everything I need thru them. Other folks here can recommend suppliers they use too if you'd like to check more out. One other catalog I'd recommend to anyone is www.jefferslivestock.com. If you havent got one you can order it online.

    Copper supplementation is another thing you may need to address soon, after you get some of the rest of these interventions started. Good info on copper in 101, you may want to read up on it. Most of us bolus copper oxide needles, oral copper drenches arent safe and I defintely wouldnt recommend that for animals already stressed.

    My guess is your vet treat goats like small cows, as Vicki said- and they really are so different. His emphasis on pasture rotation also makes me wonder if he is more used to treating meat goat herds-where that strategy is definitely more important, since they tend to be less intensively managed than dairy goats. Dont get me wrong, rotation is great if you can do! But lots of folks keep their animals in small pastures or dry lots and handle these problems just fine,its just learning the management you need for your individual conditions to keep things under control before they become problems. Thats what youre doing now- good on you! it takes time.

    Its a tall order but you can do this and get this under control and improving. You'll be amazed at how much better they will do. It will take a little while, but things will improve and you'll be happier with the results. As one of the newer folks here, who makes lots of mistakes, I can tell you how priceless the advice here is to me. I'm learning the hard way sometimes too, and its tough, I feel bad when things happen. but my management is improving with the help i get here and i can see the difference already. You're really motivated and will make it work.
     
  9. Don't loose heart. Just keep on trying and listen to these good folks. Tim, Vicki, Sondra, Sara, Kaye, et al....these folks know how to take care of goats! I know how you feel. I'm relatively new myself and I have learned SO MUCH here. PS: Try to get that hay up off the ground. they always want to pull it down, urinate on it and sleep on it. Once it's on the ground they'll never touch it again. My goats won't anyway. Hay is very good for goats, especially good alfalfa hay. They need it, especially the young ones and milking does, need that calcium. I just want to encouage you. Keep on trying. Sometimes some of us have to educate our feed dealers and our vets about goats and hope they will listen. A tip: Learn here what goats require and tell your feed dealer what you need. Don't let him tell you what you need. If you can't find what you need, there may be some on here who can help you find what you need in your area.

    There is no such thing as a dumb question, because if you never ask you'll never learn. One of my professors told me that. Kudos for daring to ask.