What are these symptoms of?

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by Rence, Sep 19, 2008.

  1. Rence

    Rence Guest

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    Hi,

    I had a near-catastrophy yesterday I think. I have a one year old nubian who occassionally has a congested cough, with no other symptoms.
    I had the vet out last week because she was hacking when I was feeding them (and loving on them in the process). The vet said she looked perfectly fine, no runny nose, listened to her chest and said it was clear, and on top of it, the doe didn't cough once in the vet's presence. I didn't think much of it after that.

    But tuesday evening I noticed that she was standing in the same place for long periods of time, and away from the rest of the goats, and swaying very very slightly. She was the last one to arrive when I brought some grain, and I had to coax her to eat. I gave her crushed SMZ mixed with goat drench but I wasn't sure if she took it all (it was dark).

    Wednesday around 2pm, she was standing in the same place, head hung, kinda wobbly and looking funny. I gave her 3mL Nuflor and 1/2mL of Bantamine. I also wormed everyone, including her, with Ivomec. At that point she was panting and real uncomfortable. All the other does were picking on her too. I called the vet and told her what was going on, and she told me to give her 5mL of LA-200 in addition to everything else. I also added a bit of Probios gel and Vitamin B gel. Within a few hours, after she rested in the goat house (at first I thought she was dead, but she was resting comfortably), she came running down a hill with everyone else when I came to the field to clean out their water containers and refill them.

    Today, she's much better, though still weak. She's sometimes last one to arrive when I visit, but at least she's not dragging, just a little slower. She's anxious to eat as well. I gave her 3mL of nuflor and 1/2mL of bantamine. My yearling buck started trying to court her as well.

    The vet said to give her 3mL of nuflor for three more days, and tomorrow to add another 5mL of LA-200. She mentioned mycoplasma, but from what I understand the doe's symptoms might have indicated a miscarriage and I thought she was in the beginning month or two of pregnancy. I didn't see any blood or anything. But a friend who was with me yesterday said she had blood on her hands from petting one of them. At the time I thought it was because we were sticking her with needles and she was fighting us. But then later it occurred to me that maybe she miscarried? I haven't actually seen blood on her.

    Tonight, around 1030pm, my yearling buck was chasing her around the field. I went out there to just check on them, and she was right there with everyone, alert and curious. I wouldn't say she's all better, but she's definitely getting there.

    I should mention that one of the other yearling does was a little bit lethargic and slow last week, but it only lasted a day and she was fine the next day. I never saw this one cough.

    Has anyone seen these symptoms in their goats? Would mycoplasma respond so quickly to the antibiotics, if that's what it is? And isn't mycoplasma really aggressive? Is it possible the episode yesterday wasn't related to any coughing? Isn't it normal for goats to cough sometimes, especially if it's dry?

    What do you all think?

    -Rence
     
  2. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    Sorry...I was kinda reading fast....but I didn't catch that you had done body temp checks, or had any fecal work done. These 2 things tell me so much when I'm trying to figure out what's up with a goat that is "off".

    Only when I eliminate worm/cocci related symptoms, and eliminate infection/fever, do I head off looking for something else.....unless it's obvious bloat or something like that.

    I think we are gonna need more info....as we need to eliminate a couple things that may be part of the problem.


    Whim
     

  3. Little Moon

    Little Moon New Member

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    I don't know a lot about mycoplasma, but it does sound like other goats would have had it also. The wobbliness (if that is a word) would make me tend to think of polio or listerosis, but I don't think it would have cleared up that fast.

    I wish I had some terrific answer, but I don't. I am glad she is doing better for you and hope that she continues to improve. I guess keep notes about what you have done, and keep a close eye on her to watch for any more problems. If she did miscarry, I would think you would have had the string of goo that comes with L & D.

    My 2 cents,
    Anne
     
  4. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    Glad to hear she is feeling a little better at least. A thermometer really is your best friend; the first thing I do when I see a goat that's "off" is take a temp. What does she weigh?

    The blood was most likely from the injection...it isn't uncommon to nick a skin vessel that will bleed a couple drops, and you may not see it on the goat because of the hair. If it was from a miscarriage you would have seen traces of it on her.

    There are a couple different bugs that can cause pneumonia-like problems...mycoplasma is not the only one. Have you brought any new goats in lately, or have they been stressed in any way (shows, etc.)?
     
  5. Rence

    Rence Guest

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    I did not take her temperature at the time, but under her eyelids were pink. She's about 50lbs.

    She, and everyone else, had fecals about two months ago, and were found to have stomach worms, tapeworm and coccidia. One vet freaked out about it, and the otherr said it was normal and to just treat them and retest them later. I treated them all for it per the vet's instructions. I gave them safeguard and cydexin, and treated their water with a sulfa drug for coccidia. Then I moved them to a brand new field to let their old pasture rest. They've been in the new field for about three weeks now. Tuesday I wormed everyone with Ivomec at the same time that I gave her antibiotics.
     
  6. Rence

    Rence Guest

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    Well, I finished a five day course of 3cc Nuflor and 0.5cc Bantamine, and three days (Wed, Fri, Sun) of 5cc LA-200. So, all these meds finished yesterday.

    Every time I think she's doing better, she lags behind everyone again or lays by herself. Today, she ran down a hill with everyone else when I brought some grain, and she went for the container, along with everyone else, but as soon as I turned around, she stopped eating and was off by herself again. I offered her some grain by hand and she refused it, though she was quick to scamper away from me. After I left, she laid away from everyone else for a good half hour and then started grazing. As everyone else walked towards the goat house/water/minerals, she lagged behind and then all of a sudden sprinted the rest of the way. I just don't know what to think of her... She's obviously not back to her normal self, but isn't down yet.

    Does anyone have any ideas? I didn't get her temperature yet though.

    -Rence
     
  7. Ashley

    Ashley Active Member

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    Wait a hold it, she's 50 lbs and the buck is in with her?
     
  8. Rence

    Rence Guest

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    Yes, a buck is in with her, as well as three other does. She's a year old, and so is he. -Rence
     
  9. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    OK first off sorry I missed this post earlier, but your cocci treatment was worthless.
    putting sulfa in thier water doesn't do the job. so get either demethox 40% or Sulmet/Albon or Corid and use the doses recommended in Goat 101 get another fecal run on her and also get her temp With a miscariage at that stage you probably wouldn't see anything but a wet tail maybe. a year old Nubian weighing 50 lb is way way to light in weight and shouldn't be bred at all especially not feeling up to par. She shouldn't be in with a buck at this weight
     
  10. Rence

    Rence Guest

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    I just got through reading some of the posts on the philosophical discussion on breeding and age (haven't finished yet). Can someone recommend a good book about health of nubian goats? because I've had the vet out a couple times, and she's seen the goat (and all my goats) and didn't say a thing her being too young or too light to breed. Her previous owner, a friend of mine, usually has them freshen when they're one year old.

    I have Albon. I have a fecal going to the vet tomorrow (I forgot to mention, that I noticed tonight that her goat berries are like little logs and not berries, so I took some samples. The vet was already closed, so it has to wait until tomorrow).
    And this is odd too, because another vet (the one I get my meds from) gave me the gallon to mix in with their water....several weeks after selling me a bottle of Albon (along with some other stuff).

    Should I give everyone Albon or just her? And I'm not medicating everyone too much, especially her with all the antibiotics I just gave?

    -Rence
     
  11. Ashley

    Ashley Active Member

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    One year old is fine, but by that age, they should be over 100 lbs anyway. You want them to gain 10 lbs per month from the time they are born to the fall breeding season so they will be at least 90 lbs to be bred to freshen their yearling year. At least, that's how it goes in theory, some wait until the second breeding season, especially with some lines I believe.
     
  12. Are you guessing her weight or are you weighing her with either a scale or weigh tape?
     
  13. Rence

    Rence Guest

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    Is it possible my nubians run on the small side of nubians? I have two does that are one year and eight months old, and they weigh 81lbs and 63lbs (twins, one is a little bigger, not sure if both are bred, but one is for sure). One of my does is one year and 6 months old and she weighs 72lbs (she appears bred right now). My one year and one month olds are 48lbs and 60lbs. The yearling buck is 63lbs and the year and eight month old buck is 120lbs. The saanen/nubian mix is 5 years old, and about 105lbs.

    I do believe this little doe miscarried. Two weeks ago, I was concerned that the 63lb above mentioned yearling was smaller than her 48lb companion, who is now smaller and the one who isn't feeling well.

    For arguement's sake, what if she miscarried? Are the antibiotics enough? or too much? Should I be doing anything else for her?

    The only way I can separate them right now is to completely separate the does from the bucks. Which isn't a problem because all who I want bred is bred. But this is the beginning of the season for the nubians, and they're both sweet as heck, but after reading the posts about bucks, I wonder if they'll fight? They were alone together for a week and got along fine...but it was only for a week o.o;;
     
  14. Rence

    Rence Guest

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    Amy, I'm weighing with a weight tape. -Rence
     
  15. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    My yearling does are milking and weigh 140 pounds when 13 months old and are right now 165. I do breed to freshen the first year but my girls are nearly 100 pounds, high 90's at least by 8 months. This shows you how underweight and sized this kid is.

    Cocci and worms is nearly always the culprit esepcially in the goats who are the low man on the totem pole.

    Your best advice comes from this forum, you have several major nubian breeders on here from dairies to National show winners to top 10 DHIR milkers.

    Have you ever fecaled to see if your Ivermectin still works? It doesn't work here for blood sucking barber pole/HC worms, it does work for lungworm and cool weather worms. What dosages of Ivermectin are you using and which one are you using?

    What does her mucous membranes of her eyes look?

    We have a chart up on goatkeeping 101 that is labeled FAMACHA, it is an anemia chart...what number is she?

    Can you post a photo or privately send one of the doe?

    If she is anemic the chasing by the buck will exhaust her.

    For future reference you want to use any 200 mg tetracycline except for LA200 and give it subq. Also it is not LA long acting in goats and must be given once every 12 to 24 hours to keep the bloodlevel up in goats.

    From your post I can tell you vet is treating your goats like cattle. Having a vet who used to do the same thing you have an uphill battle :) Vicki
     
  16. Rence

    Rence Guest

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    Vicki,

    I had my goats fecaled a few months after I got them, and they had "some", and were treated with Cydexin. About two months ago, I had them fecaled again, and I was told to use Safeguard and Lavamisole by one vet who said they were "infested", and Safeguard and Cydexin by another vet who said he didn't see anything remarkable. I was afraid to use the Lavamisole because I was afraid of the toxic effect of overdosing, so I wormed with Cydexin and Safeguard and moved them all to a new field a few days later (Sept 1st). They're old pens need to be rested for a few more weeks before I will even consider bringing them back.

    This week I rewormed with Ivermectin/Noromectin and I caught this sick doe (Mary) pooping, so I grabbed a sample and will run it to the vet tomorrow morning.

    I thought we weren't supposed to give a tetracycline at all to pregnant does? The only reason why I even gave it because she was about to go down, and I suspected miscarriage anyway.

    According to the Famancha chart, I think she was #3, but I'll have to check. I didn't realize they had to be so red. At least that number one is coming up really really red on my end over here. I'll check everyone's eyes tomorrow.

    My oldest buck though worries me. I noticed tonight that the whites of his eyes are really white, but I didn't check under his eyelids. He's very underweight and I asked his previous owner about it and she assured me that he gets like that when he's in rut, which he is most definitely in rut. He was nice and filled out when he came here a few months ago.

    Any suggestions on what to do to put more weight on him? He's on a nice pasture and I grain him about a cup a day, because I figured he didn't need to be grained this time of year anyway.

    I also have Iron paste that I got from Hoegger's, and I have injectable iron as well.

    I'm starting to get really really concerned. I always thought I had very healthy goats and the last time a vet saw them he said they were very healthy looking with bright eyes and slick coats, and that was barely two months ago. And two weeks ago before Mary fell ill, I had my regular vet out and she said everyone looked fine too. She must have seen my skinny buck, but she was paying attention to Mary and her surrounding buddies.

    They're all in a very nice pasture, plus being grained to keep them out of the new LGD's food, which I wanted to stop now that my oldest is due to kid in about three weeks. Now I'm not sure what to do.

    I'll post pictures of them tomorrow, it's too dark now. A picture of Mary taken approximately three weeks ago is here:
    http://dammidolci.com/piccolojoes/does.html

    The bucks are here:
    http://dammidolci.com/piccolojoes/bucks.html



    Vinnie looks the same, but Theo is much much much thinner now, and like I said, I was assured he does this every year.

    I'll post current pictures tomorrow.

    -Rence
     
  17. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Just to show you how off your thinking is because of the poor information you have been told...

    I had my goats fecaled a few months after I got them, and they had "some", and were treated with Cydexin. About two months ago, I had them fecaled again, and I was told to use Safeguard and Lavamisole by one vet who said they were "infested", and Safeguard and Cydexin by another vet who said he didn't see anything remarkable.

    What does this really mean? Infested with what? When you have a fecal ran you need to have a number, ask if they use a chambered slide so you can get an Eggs Per Gram EPG. This way each time you fecal you know if you are going in the right direction or not. Fecal, if you have 300 to 600 EPG of HC (haemoncus contortus) or they may call them barberpole worms or sometimes vets call thm hookworms (they aren't) or liver flukes (they aren't) than worm if your numbers go up to that. Then in 7 to 10 days take another fecal in on the goat and see if the worming worked.

    With the goats being new to you what did the previous owners use? Did they give it orally? Because if they poured Cydectin on this could be your problem, or underdosed it, or gave it monthly. This all builds resistance. Which will force you to use cocktails of cydectin and safeguard...or move to levamisole.

    I was afraid to use the Lavamisole because I was afraid of the toxic effect of overdosing


    Overdosing with any wormer will harm the liver of your goat, but levamisole will also give you some pretty scarry neurological symptoms, which in about 1/2 and hour are gone. There is no death and destruction like told about on forums :)

    They're old pens need to be rested for a few more weeks before I will even consider bringing them back.

    You have to rest pens until after a hard freeze to kill worm eggs and larve in pasture, unless you live in the arid desert.

    I thought we weren't supposed to give a tetracycline at all to pregnant does?

    Why? I know forums say so, but why? When we took (I am 51) tetracycline back in the day for acne it caused us to have spots on our teeth which was really a weakness of the enamal, so it makes sense then that it could also weaken the bones and teeth of the kids in utero with our goats. :rofl :help Not laughing at you, with you!

    At least that number one is coming up really really red on my end over here.

    Yes it is blood red. Dogs have really good membranes to learn on, an anemic dog is dead, they stay blood red most of the time.

    I would get myself the Cydectin, hopefully you are purchasing yourself from jefferspet.com and not the vet. I would worm everyone, 1cc per 22 pounds orally and if you don't have a scale use a weigh tape at least. Make sure you don't worm too light. Then in 10 days reworm, this will get the adult bloodsucking worms who didn't abandon ship with the first worming and also any larve that arrested in the system. This will get you into better shape with your goats.

    I would also take the buck out, unless the rest of your girls are in better shape anemia wise. You don't want does in poor shape being bred.

    The little bit of grain can do your buck more harm than good unless it contains ammonium chloride, or he can get urinary calculi (stones) from the phosphrous in the browse, in the hay and in the grain. You would do your goats so much better service if you concentrated on feeding the best hay you can find and alfalfa is best or the best grass hay and alfalfa pellets rather than a little bit of grain. Then at the end of pregnancy the month before they should kid then give them good whole clean oats, start slow and build them up for the amount you are going to feed when nursing kids...or find a really good alfalfa based meat goat pellet that has alfalfa meal on the tag, feed this to everyone, it will contain AC in it for the bucks and a cocci med in it for the kids. It won't really work on the kids for cocci until about 8 weeks old so you will still have to do at last 2 cocci treatments on your kids with wormings, but it certainly helps them through weaning, it also lessons the amount of cocci in the pens the kids live in.

    I would bet your problems are worms and not anything else. You always want to treat worms agressively when you purchase stock. You weren't sold wormy goats, you were sold goats with no aftercare. Worms under control at their old home are now multiplying really quickly due to the stress of the move. Also keeping them out of their barns and pastures for 12 hours after worming so they just don't reinfest their areas. Wormings don't kill alot of worms, they make the eggs abandon ship, the larve and eggs then float up in the pasture grass when it rains or with dew and are reeaten by our goats. They also are picked up on feet in the grass and manure and then go into feed pans and hay feeders to reinfest the group. Feeding up off the ground and keeping your grass higher than the puddles becomes so important late spring and early summer, then the cool of fall, when bloodsucking worms are killers.

    Ok to long to proofread, but this will give you a start...Vicki
     
  18. Rose

    Rose New Member

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    I'll admit I'm new at this - only about a year and a half of goat experience, but your Nubians look small to me.

    This is a link to a friend's goat pics. Scroll down the page to see the does with a person so you can get relative size.

    http://www.agesagoacresnubians.com/aroundthefarmpg2.htm
     
  19. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    Rence; I've got to be careful about what I'm about to say, as I'm gonna do my best not to be slanderous or put some reputable breeder's in your/our neck of the woods in the same class as others.
    There has been a lot of something less than reputable goat trading going on north of me in the last few months. Lots of goats being moved around and sold as "quality" dairy goats. Some have ended up down around me lately....and to be honest, most of them are not only poor quality, but are in poor health.

    I'm not saying that this is the case with you and your goats, but reading some of what you have posted...I see many similarities that lead me to think that some of your troubles may have originated from some of this haphazard goat trading that has been going on in north Al. - lower middle Tn.

    There has been a desperate search for milk goats around here since last spring, and very few quality animals have been available in our area...so people bought what they could, or what was for sale. The attitude was/is, something is better than nothing at all.....so lots of folks have really gotten messed up when starting out.

    It's very hard for most of us who have been in goating a while to take these sickly type animals and get them back to reasonably good health.....so it's almost impossible to expect to be able to do it as a beginner.

    I'm not accusing anybody of anything here....but just throwing a lot of caution to the wind about being very careful who your purchase goats from.
    If you survey this crowd on this forum, you will find that most are extremely cautious when purchasing outside animals to be mixed with their herd...even from folks that we know to some degree.

    It is true that you may pay a lot more for an animal that comes from a reputable herd/breeder, but at the cost of meds and vet visits, clean/healthy goats are a bargain most of the time....and a lot less stressful to deal with.
    Nothing enjoyable about this business at all when your dealing with sick/dieing animals all the time.

    I hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings as that is not my intent......just trying to offer some "words to the wise" is all.

    Whim
     
  20. Rence

    Rence Guest

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    Rose, the yearlings I brought home are big like that. The ones I raised from babies are the small ones. I was told they go through growth spurts? I know Vinnie was a runt and caught up with Benny when he was about 10months old.

    Whim, I'm not offended at all. The truth is, I'm very new and the're probably small due to my lack of experience. If you look at my website at the pictures of the does and bucks, Theo, Ashley, Josephine and Diana came to me as yearlings and they were much bigger than mine. The ones I raised from about 3 months old are Vinnie, Cici and Mary and again, I've always thought they did really well and they were getting big, but over the past few months they have slowed down and the past few weeks I've had some troubles. And that's why I've come here for some help.

    I spent $2000 after getting my butt spanked by my vet who yelled at me for not having a big enough area and not having pens to rotate them in, so I opened up a field for them (and had to buy a LGD because of neighbors with goat-attacking dogs that run like a pack, but that's another story). Aside from them being small, the vets have said they were really in good health, and it just caught up to me I think.

    I should also say that my neighbor had a herd of boer goats that she terribly mismanaged until they were dropping like flies at a rate of 2-4 a week, and they came onto my field dialy for months until they all died or got killed by her dogs. The field they're in has been empty for several weeks. Both vets told me that six weeks is enough time to rest a pasture against what usually goes around in goats.

    As a side note: tetracyclines are not supposed to be given to pregnant anyone (including humans) or those still growing, because it interferes with teeth and bone growth and formation, even in utero. That's why it turned teeth yellow. It used to be given to teenagers for acne yes, but now it's not because of those reasons.

    Now, I checked everyone's eyes today and I'm still confused :p The whites of their eyes are very very white, but the membrane under their eyelid is pink...like number 3 on the scale. One of them is a 2.

    I wormed everyone with Ivomectin and Safeguard (and will do safeguard again for two more days for tapeworms). I gave Mary 2.5mL of Vitamin B complex. And I separated the does from the bucks.

    I called Theo's previous owner and she agreed, by my discription, that he is too skinny. That's why I wormed again. She suggested I buy goat vitamins for a while, and keep an eye on them after this worming.

    I do think Angie is a very reputable breeder, I just didn't have any guidance as a newbie. Part of the problem is, I didn't believe in medicating (worming) without an apparent reason, and the first time I wormed it was only after fecals were run because I was adamant that I should be using the right wormer for the right bug. I think I'm trying to play catch up now, and I'm really doing my best.

    I still honestly believe that Mary had a miscarriage, but I really don't know for sure.

    Any other things anyone wants to add that I've missed, or if I'm on the wrong track?

    As to grain, I use Co-Op sweet feed. I used to use Dumor. Any suggestions? I read somewhere that horse sweet feed is better?

    -Rence