Understanding CL

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by baileybunch, Feb 3, 2008.

  1. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    I ran into the following situation with a sheep breeder I am dialoging with. Since it applies to both goats and sheep (of which I have both) I thought it a good subject for others as well.

    This breeder had/has a herd of Boer goats and later found that they had CL. Now, I don't know how many had outbreaks or the exact circumstances. She said they vaccinate for it now and haven't had any problems until they borrowed a buck and he came up with an abcess. I don't think they have the goats anymore but, of course, CL is now in the ground on their farm.

    My herd of goats tested negative for CL.
    Our two sheep have no known abcesses but have never been tested.

    My questions:
    Her sheep are vaccinated for CL and I don't think they have had any outbreaks. Even with CL infected ground can you have "clean" stock? Or would even buying a negative and vaccinated animal from her farm be risking CL contamination on my farm?

    I look forward to learning more about this...
     
  2. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    I think you can even carry it to your farm on your shoes. or from rubbing on a fence.
    Even tho her animals have had the shots and are probalby free you don't know that for sure because they will test positive because of the vaccine.
    I don't know any of this for a fact just what I have gathered from reading stuff
     

  3. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    I don't know that you could carry the CL to your farm on your shoes unless you stepped in pus, but I would not buy a goat from a farm where they vaccinate for CL because they have had it there. In fact, I would not want to buy a goat a person said was vaccinated because I would really have no way of knowing if the positive test was caused by the vaccine or the goat was carrying the disease with no visible symptoms. I've heard that if a goat or sheep has an abcess burst, any wood in the area it was has to be removed, any metal and the like bleached/pressure washed and 6 inches of the ground removed and then limed. So, no I wouldn't want to risk bringing that disease to my place. That is why our goat shows have a policy of not allowing goats with either abcesses or scars consistant with CL unles it has a current negative CL test result accompanying it.
     
  4. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    The biggy is that they really have no clue if the vaccine is working or not, because once a goat is over the stress of the move to it's new home, they rarely if ever have another abscess. We had alot of does in the dairy with CL, but they were just blood tested positive for it. There were at least 15 that were CL positive, maybe 8 that were CAE positive and only Scotia, a togg/lamancha does would have an abscess once a year right after kidding. My vet would remove it whole, we would send it in and yep positive again. None of the other does ever showed abscess after either their initial abscess or they just had scars where they obviously had one before they got here. When we butchered (or I should say they were going to) when we put her down, she was riddled with abscess on her brisket area. You could not see them from the outside. When we put down the last doe in that group we didn't use the pen or pasture or barn for years...sold the barn even. So the whole vaccination thing, the whole I have never seen abscess so my does are negative thing, is just scarry to me since I could have said the same thing with my old dairy girls....in fact 3 of those does were permanant champions. Vicki
     
  5. BlueHeronFarm

    BlueHeronFarm New Member

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    At our last goat club meeting, a vet from Prairie View was the speaker. She said the blood tests can tell the difference between the levels from a vaccine and the levels when a goat has an active infection. So you could know if they had internal abscesses.

    I guess what it probably can't tell is if they are infected but not active. That would probably register the same as an immunized goat. ??? Not sure.
     
  6. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    Well, it's a total bummer as this is one of only a few area breeders of the <rare> sheep breed that my daughter wants. I did read that we <could> get lambs if they were pulled at birth and we bottle-raised but the breeder isn't interested in doing that. Also, we were hoping to take the rams that she was done with for our breeding. So, obviously, all that is out of the question now as I do not have CL on my farm, nor do I want to risk it. So discouraging!
     
  7. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    There is maybe 3 to 4 years ago, a question an answer thread on our old forum from UC Davis, that says very specifically that this information is incorrect. So either they have a new test or this info is wrong. I know the black gal vet at Prarie View had that kind of information that when she was at the meeting I went to, I just sat their in cringed. Mostly about ketosis once again. But I know specifically those questions were answered because those folks were on sheepandgoatrancher.com talking about their vaccines, their boers and their titer level tests their vets were taking to know that yes indeed their goats had or didn't have CL then they would know after vaccinating that this new level was from the vaccine. It was bunk. UC Davis, where they were all testing concurred. I am fairly certain this could be found on DG+...or perhaps UCDavis has the old information they gave out...and perhaps the new information that says their test has changed to tell this antibody level idea for vaccination...for someone who has time to hunt. Vicki
     
  8. Not to beat this horse to death... I just discovered (test positive) that one of my Boers has CL. She is abundantly pregnant and due the 27th of March. I intend to cull her after she kids but what precautions, other than isolating her from the herd (and kids once they're born), should I take? Can I still safely use her milk for the kids?
     
  9. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    It's the environment the doe is living in that will infect her kids, not nursing their dam. If she is positive from blood test, without scars or abscess, than she can be positive only because of vaccine...and why I won't vaccinate. You could be culling a perfectly healthy goat because someone chose to vaccinate her for CL and now you can not tell the difference (unless you have an abscess on her or old scars from them) from her having CL or being vaccinated. Vicki
     
  10. Yes Vicki, I had her tested from the abscess that just developed this weekend. The vet feels that the stress of pregnancy brought it on, but it's definitely CL so now I get to try and save her kids and the other girls from this curse. I bought her last year from a Texas purchase to strengthen the Boer line in my herd. She's a beauty too!!! I guess I'd best count my blessings that she'll give me offspring within two months.
    I learned from the vet that CAE is quite rampant in New Hampshire. I thought just the opposite! :/ I guess my old dairy goat herd, healthy as horses, was an exception around here. We never knew anyone with CAE and we always tested negative. So now I know how it feels to battle the odds.
     
  11. Bella Star

    Bella Star New Member

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    I am really paranoid about CL , I bought myself a registered splashy FB Nubian (my first FB dairy ) for Christmas once and she had been given the CL shot.I didn't know that much about CL and I had never seen a goat with it anyway after much thought and reading up on CL along with the posts here about CL... I told the lady I couldn't keep her as I couldn't be sure that she didn't or she might get/have a abscess in her udder and I dont pasteurize so if the lady didn't take her back I was taking her to sale barn,anyway the lady took her back and gave me back my money ,BUT I was sooo lucky and if she had not I would have lost $$$... but in the long run it would be very much worth it as a pretty doe or buck is NOT worth it to spread CL to your whole herd ! CL lives for years in soil,on barn posts and any place that puss gets on , I dont even like taking my does out of their trailer for the vet to check in a vet pen as I worry about CL and the vet lancing one in the pen or something and my doe catching it from my vet . No goat is a beauty with a big golf ball size puss ball on it . I raise Boers and I also eat goat meat , I know that a CL abscess would do something to the meat ,like scar tissue or something and I wont eat a goat with scar stuff all in the meat carcuss , so for my piece of mind and the health of our herd ... I would never consider a goat that had had a CL vaccine or a CL + goat .
    That's why we test every Boer with a fresh CAE and CL test when they are sold ,before the goat leaves our farm, I wanna know and I want the buyer to be at ease that if the goat does come up being + ,that CL or CAE disease came from somewhere else other than from our farm ....my Herd Protection and I dont like problems ,especially diseases.

    I did find tho that some people LOOK for a CAE+ doe for milking as they say it's good for people with arthritis and aids .
     
  12. Melissa

    Melissa New Member

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    so say you had a doe. she was born on your place, after many kiddings you have never seen a lump, bump, or anything. you didn't give a CL vaccine and she tested positave. would that mean that she has the lumps internally? can a doeling be born at a farm that has it, sold to someone and NOT have it? I will admit, I've never seen a CL abscess on any goat. even the sale barn ones around here (of coarse I didn't get very close to examine them) but I think I'd know what you all mean if I ever did see one. I guess I worry more about the CAE as I or my goats don't have very much outside contact with other goats. yet another reason to AI.

    -Melissa
     
  13. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    I have a friend who raises Boers as well as dairy goats. She once bought some Nubians for her dairy and one turned up with an abcess. She quarantined that goat and tested her. The test turned out positive, so the goat was culled and she tested her whole herd. Three of her Boers tested positive, but had no abcesses. She quarantined them and eventually culled them. They never did get any external abcesses. One of the does kidded during this time and the kids were immediately removed. She didn't want to take any chances with the twin doelings, so fed them the heat treated colostrum from a clean doe. She put the doe down the day she kidded and we butchered her. She had no abcesses anywhere, and she looked very closely. She thinks the doe may have been vaccinated for CL. As for the doelings, they have been tested for CL and are negatice. She still has these girls and they are healthy older does now. So I would definately remove the kids at birth and feed them the colostrum of a negative doe, removing the risk of infecting the kids through an udder abcess.
     
  14. Thanks goatkid, I am definitely going to remove the kids at birth and bottle feed, but will have to milk the dam to have enough milk to go around. I'll pasteurize and ultimately cull her out of the herd. Just wanted to make sure that between that and a major disinfecting of the holding stall I'll have covered all the angles.
     
  15. luqmanT

    luqmanT New Member

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    sorry, make this topic wake up after 1 years.im new here, and im new with CLA. what i readed in uc davis article, he wrote about how to PASTEURIZATION OF MILK.im wondering can we consume goat milk that positive infected with this disease?how about raw milk? or can we make byproduct instead for human food.such soap, lotion or etc..
     
  16. dragonlair

    dragonlair Active Member

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    I have a question about the CL vaccine. Say you vaccinate your doe. She has kids. The kids stay on her because she was CL negative before you vaccinated her. Will the CL antibodies be passed thru the colostrum to give the kids passive immunity? Will they test positive if you tested them during that 3 months where the does antibodies protect them? Do you even test them that young?

    I've never tested for CL. Years ago, with my original stock, I tested for CAE (negative) but CL wasn't a big issue back then, at least not around here.
     
  17. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    CAE negative years ago was meaningless and we know this now, old AGID testing had as many false negatives as you have false borderline and postivies combined now with Elissa. I kind of cringe sometimes at what stock was sold, gave away or destroyed because they were positive. Were they positive?

    CL testing, we didn't even know until the late 80's that Chessey Gland, abscess, cancer, tumors, or whatever else your vets diagnosed this as, was even a communciable disesase let alone zoonic. We thought it ran in family lines, since you only saw it in some herds. Even today if you take an abscess into most vets, they will simply state "it's just a corny", lance it, exude out the puss and send you home with a goat who will infect everyone who comes in contact with the weeping sore until it is completely healed.

    There are lots of older breeders who say they have never had CAE positive goats, but with pasteurising and heat treating information only coming to light in the late 80's and it took until the 90's to even have testing that was accurate, I find that statement hard to believe. I can honestly say, although I know those who have never had CL I do not know personally any herd that didn't fight CAE like I did.

    I would never vaccinate my goats for CL. I don't think CL is a manageable disease now with all the information we have. I did manage CAE through the 90's in the dairy part of my herd...but thankfully I also knew it was corny bacterium and wasn't ignorant enough to think I could vaccinate, slice and dice, or formaline my way out of this death sentence to your property, barn and reputation.

    For myself and my customers and hopefully most on the forum, the point is moot on whether or not the kid would test positive for it or not because it's dam is vaccinated or not, nobody will buy a dairy goat who is positive on anything just on the word of the person that it's because of a vaccination stimulating immunity. Now in the meat goat world this happens all the time, and abscess popping up in purchased goats, just as often. Vicki
     
  18. dragonlair

    dragonlair Active Member

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    I had 2 Nubians, mother and daughter, in the early 80's who tested positive for CAE. Testing was really just a moot point anyway, because Mom had the symptoms big time. She belonged to a farm hand, who moved in with his goat herd (kept separate from mine who all tested negative) who then skipped town one night leaving the goats behind. Some were very expensive Saanan and Nubian breeding stock he paid mega bucks for and had shipped to Maine. The Nubian from this one famous farm in California had CAE bad. Talk about classic symptoms, she had them all, as did ultimately, her daughter. Sad, because they were both beautiful does who went champion at the shows up here. I had them put down because they were suffering and sold the rest of his herd, since he never came back to get them. (hard to do when you are in jail I guess)

    After that scare I pulled all the kids at birth and fed them heat treated/pasteurized colostrum/milk for a couple of generations. After that I let the dams raise the kids because I had to start working outside the home and just didn't have time to bottle feed the kids. I had a closed herd, so after a couple of negative tests, I didn't worry about it much. When I finally bought my place here, which had never had goats of any type on it for at least the last 125 years, I had them all tested for CL and CAE. Because they were still negative, I let them continue to raise their own kids. After years of being a closed herd, I finally got a new buck who had been tested neg. However, I will be having them tested again, just to be sure they are all still free of both diseases.

    My question was just out of curiosity since I wouldn't use the CL vaccination. I was just wondering if a passive immunity would show up positive on a CL test. And if so, would that kid be forever positive or would the dams antibodies fade and leave the kids system and be negative in future tests. And another question similar in nature, just because inquiring minds want to know: if a pregnant doe was given the CL vaccination, would the virus from the injection pass thru to the unborn kid in utero?

    Most of the vets up here are clueless about goats and treat them like mini bovines or bald sheep. When they see an abscess, even ones no where near a lymph node, they over react and call it CL, even if its staph caused from an injury.