tubing question

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by buckrun, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    I have read and heard people discuss tubing new born goats and the outcome is often the death of the kid. My question is this.

    Do you not have to be sure you are tubing milk into the milk stomach and bypassing the rumen?
    Doesn't this mean that you have to find the milk groove accurately?

    I have never had to do this but I assume you do not want to introduce milk into the rumen and could it be possible that some of the deaths after tubing are milk in the wrong places?

    How would you be sure that you are in the milk groove with a tube if they are unresponsive?
    Any input welcome!
    Lee
     
  2. Chaty

    Chaty New Member

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    Cant answer all the questions but I have tubed with success. I measure the tube and I dont attach the syringe till I know the tube is in the stomach. When I insert it I then listen and if I hear air I know I am in the lungs. Back up the tube and redo and then listen and if no air attatch the tube and syringe slowly the colostrum or milk in to them. When it is done I unattatch the tube and put finger on top of the tube so if any milk or other liquid is in the tube it wont go into the lungs. I also let them swallow if they can and it does lead it to the right stomach. If they are unresponsive I just try till its in the tummy. sometimes you win and sometimes you dont. And vets arent always good at it either.
     

  3. susie

    susie New Member

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    Lee-
    I'm not sure of the anatomy per se, ( I don't know what a milk groove is or stomach vs rumen)but I took a goat farmer class and a Vet showed us how to tube a goat. She did not say anything about rumen , simply stomach vs. lung.

    the kid will cough/gag/sneeze if it it in the lungs. Also to verify the tube placement you can take an empty syringe, attach it to the tube and draw back. If you are in the stomach it will barely go back, but in the lungs it will draw back easily.

    It is very important to pinch the tube closed when taking it out or a bit of milk could get into the lungs.

    This is what I know-- I was able to successfully tube a kid for 5 days till she learned how to suck. I did forget to pinch the tube in the beginning, so I think she did get some fluid in the wrong place, but we were able to treat with antibiotics. ( Thanks Kaye!)

    Maybe it seems like a lot of kids die after tubing because they had an issue to begin with that warranted the tubing?

    Just my thought-- gotta go nowI think my cow is calving--
    Susie
     
  4. ecftoggs

    ecftoggs New Member

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    Tubing should not "often" end badly. Never tube a kid that cannot hold it's head up. Always go in on the right side of the animal. Let it swallow the tube, slowly inserting, it will not go all the way if it is in the lungs. Take the plunger out of the 60cc syrenge and let gravity flow the milk or colostrum in.
    The rumen is not developed at this age and not a concern. We are going to tube one right now for the 3rd time today as he is extremely small and was found on cold concrete in the middle of the night.
    Tim
     
  5. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    Thank you for your experiences with that. Perhaps the throat is not open to the rumen as new borns and so you are only accessing the milk stomach at that age. Not so once they are older I know. They muscularly open and close the groove that leads to the right place for the right chow!
    It just seems like a serious challenge but I hear of it frequently!
    Thank you all for those encouraging tips.
    Lee
     
  6. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    Good luck with that little guy Tim. Brrrrr concrete in Iowa in the middle of the night- what a rough start!
    Lee
     
  7. susie

    susie New Member

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    Yes put the tube in slowly from the side-- allow the kid to swallow, and let the fluids go in only as fast as they will naturally flow in with gravity.

    Not so hard once you do it ( like most things)-- and if it means life or death you don;t have alot to lose.


    Susie
     
  8. Halo-M Nubians

    Halo-M Nubians New Member

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    Hmm. Well I have rarely heard of tubing causing death??! Putting milk into the lungs of course would kill them, but there are lots of ways to make sure that doesn't happen.
    Those of us who have been raising goats for awhile do it frequently. There was a recent thread about "dummy" kids who don't suck for weeks and do just fine with the tubing. My friend has a buck kid like this, he is 12 days old today, and I'm babysitting him this weekend while she is out of town. He won't take a bottle to save his life. He has no ill effects from the tubing and its really very simple. Tubing can make the difference between losing a kid or not.
     
  9. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    I had to tube two kids so far this year. I saved one and she's doing fine. I lost the other, but I seriously do not think it was the result of tubing her. She was so weak, she could not nurse and had very little ability to move at all. She would hold her head up for a few seconds to maaa, but then she would get real floppy again and could not be warmed no matter what I did. Tubing her with warm milk was one of the things I did to try and save her. Kathie
     
  10. MRFBarbara

    MRFBarbara Guest

    stretching their necks out slightly (like they do) helps get it correctly also
    Barbara
     
  11. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife New Member

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    i have tubed successfully--

    the important thing is to make sure that you aren't in the lungs. If you can hear or feel airflow through the tube then it is in the lings. Also measure the tube for approximate length...if it stops before the length expected to get into the stomach then you are probably not in the stomach but stopped where the trachea branches off to go into the two lungs.
     
  12. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    That is great to know so many of you have mastered that technique.
    Thank you for all the input on the correct procedure.

    More importantly I read that selenium deficiency during gestation causes kids with this disorder (failure to suck) or if not actually causing it- then deficient does produce more kids with this problem.

    Do many of you feed sunflower seed during pregnancy? They are rich in selenium.
    This would give a small daily dose of this nutrient beyond the variable influence of a biannual injection.

    Thanks for all the great insight to your tubing techniques everyone.
    Lee
     
  13. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    I use BOS all year round or sunflower oil also I give BoSe shots twice a year and to kids at birth. To be real honest I have never tubed a kid I will sit for hours on end syringing cc's into the kid and always trying a bottle first. sometimes takes 4 days before they really latch on. I also give 400 iu Vit E capsul to newborns. and I use a high selenium loose mineral everyone has access to.
     
  14. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    Sondra- what brand is your mineral mix?
    What level is the selenium?
    Is there sunflower oil available commercially? Like buckets and drums of it or do you just buy grocery store sizes? Do you just drizzle on the feed? Will they eat their ration with oil on it? I am guessing cold pressed would be better with more good stuff intact.
    love this good info!
    You just give the E to the newborns one time?
    Lee
     
  15. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    I use people capsule of 400 iu and poke a hole in it and squirt right in mouth. Grocery store sunflower oil and drizzle on grain or alfalfa pellets.
    Tech-Master Complete Mineral (Bluebonnet)

    Calcium min 10% max 12
    Phosphorus min 12%
    Salt min 10% max 12
    Magnesium min 2.35 %
    Potassium min 1.45%
    Copper min 2,000 ppm
    Selenium min 26.5 ppm
    Zinc min 6,000 ppm
    Manganese min 3,500 ppm
    Cobalt min 50 ppm,
    Iodine min 100 ppm
    Vit A min per lb 200,000 IU
    Vit D3 min per lb 30,000 IU
    Vit E min per lb 300 IU

    Ingrediets
    Monocalcim Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Dried Moasses, Yeast Culture, Dehydrated Kelp Meal , Potassium Amion Acid Complex, Potassium Chloride, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Sulfate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Zince Sufid Chelate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Oxide, Cobalt Carbonate, Lecithin, Soybean Oil, Mineral Oil, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Dried Aspergitlus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Feermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillius, -Acidopphilus Fermentation Product, Vitamin A, Bitamin D3, Vit E, Choline Dhloride, Riboflavin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothemnate,Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Calcium iodate, Ethyfendediamine Dihydriodide, Thiamin Mononitrate, Folice Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vit b-6) Vit B-12

    Product Discription
    Is designed to provide calcium, phosphorus , Vitamins & patented amino acid chelated trace minerals as well as micronutrients from seaweed meal, (kelp) plus microbial digestive catalysts.

    Feeding dirrections
    Cattle/Horse feed 4 oz per head daily. no other salt.
    Goats feed 1oz.
    Do not feed to sheep or other copper sensitive animals.
     
  16. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    ok! thanks for that Sondra- recently found out we can get Tech Master at TSC!
    Going to give the oil a try too. Thanks for posting that analysis.
    Lee
     
  17. stacy adams

    stacy adams New Member

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    I haven't ever tubed either, but done what Sondra's done and worked with a kid until it sucked. And Lee, if your goats are anything like mine, they are going to LOVE the Tech Master minerals! :yes
    I tried a couple of different kinds, including Purina's, which they wouldn't eat, until Vicki first mentioned the TM minerals.. they scarfed 'em right up.. now I go thru a couple of bags a year. :sigh
     
  18. ozark_jewels

    ozark_jewels New Member

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    Oh this just made me laugh. How about three bags a month? :lol
     
  19. ozark_jewels

    ozark_jewels New Member

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    I have tubed many, many kids. Haven't lost one to tubing mistakes. :?
    I carefully ease it down their throat all the way, attach the 60 cc syringe, let the milk gravity feed into the kid without using the plunger at all. Pinch it tight with my fingernails and quickly pull it out when I'm done.
    The biggest mistake I ever made was when I was tubing a two week old Boer doeling. She jerked out of my hands and *swallowed* the entire tube. I couldn't get it back out! Well, I never saw the tube again but that doe is still here three years and three successful kiddings later. It didn't even slow her down! Needless to say, since then I am very careful to hold onto that tube! :lol