Thiamine 500mg/ml dosage for polio

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by rg1950, Aug 7, 2008.

  1. rg1950

    rg1950 New Member

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    I took a nubian buck to the vet today to get some thiamine after we found him almost dead this morning from polio. Fecal test from vet was clean. I fecalled myself when I got done treating him, just to be sure. I had just treated with corid last week with this buck. Vet gave me 500mg/ml thiamine. Vet said to give 4.5cc to him, even though he only weighs 20lbs. I did so, and he is doing better now. Still really weak, but his temperature is back up to normal(it was 93 when we found him) and he is no longer paralyzed. He is standing, and walking a little. If he falls, he can't get back up on his own, but once we pick him up he will stay standing for a long time. We are picking him up and checking on him several times today. Vet said I am to continue this treatment every 6 hours, and want to make sure the vet was right. I noticed on gk101 https://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,83.0.html that the doseage is 4.5cc per 100lbs for the 100mg/ml dosage. Is there a possibility of this med being toxic if too much is used? How much should I give of the 500mg/ml dose? I don't know what has caused this, but we lost a baby last week to the same symptoms and I didn't have thiamine on hand (I know I should have and now I do!). I used b complex on the one last week, but by the time we found her she was to sick. Tara
     
  2. rg1950

    rg1950 New Member

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    Also, how fast are you suppose to see results from this med if it works? Immediately, 2 hours later, 3 hours etc??? This buck means the world to us and we want to one day use him for one of our sires. What else can cause his symptoms? Fecal test is clean. He was fine yesterday and last night. When we found him: He has anemia (pale gums and eyelids), sub normal temp (93), floppy when we found him, almost non responsive, could not move any body parts-completely limp. could not hold up head. He is doing better tonight, but I want to see if anything besides polio can cause this. Besides cocci and stomach worms in the past, we have not had to deal with anything like this. We only have 3 goats in the pen he was in, all babies 2-3 months old. It is a pen that is new and has not been exposed to goats before we put these 3 bucklings in there. We had 4 baby calves in there for about 2 weeks before we moved them out and put the goats in there. Tara
     

  3. crocee

    crocee New Member

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    Thiamine is Vitamin B-1. B vitamins are water soluble and any excess will be peed out. I don't know if you can OD on B vitamins but someone will correct me if I am wrong.
    Andi
     
  4. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    200mg/ml thiamin you only dose 4.5cc per 100 pounds, this is a wicked large amount for a 20 pound kid with 500mg/ml thiamin. Sure it's peed out but not until after his very weak system and liver has dealt with it.

    There are only a small handful of things that causes anemia like this and of course number one is parasites. You do see nearly instant relief with B vitmains given when it is polio but yes you do have to give it very often until at least 12 hours after he is 100%. But polio doesn't explain the anemia.

    Did he have diarrhea? This could be the route the blood left the system.

    Using corid you would not see 'no' cocci, not even worming here do I ever not see 'no' eggs on fecal.

    With this the second kid, I would either take this kid to Texas A&M or I would send the next kid as they get sick.

    Also a clean fecal on parasites does not mean there aren't blood sucking moms up there simply not laying eggs, you don't see adults on fecal. It would explain the anemia, and of course he isn't eating because he is to lethargic to, a sluggish rumen and he is in polio, the subnormal temp was simply nearly death. So although you are using the bvitamins and he is coming back, being this anemic and with the cause not treated, once you stop the bvitamins he will relapse.

    Do you have a wether kid or a kid you really need to sell but haven't that you can necropsy for the health of the kid crop?

    Have the kids made weight in the pen with him and the dead kid?

    Double check everything else of course. The kid feed doesn't contain urea. No mold in the kids hay. Clean the feeders out and check for mold if you free choice kid pellets. No access out of their pens to foundation plants.

    I hope you can figure this out, I hope others on the board will give you more ideas, you simply run out of them when it is happening to you. Vicki
     
  5. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    You diagnosed him or the vet?
    Must have been polio...because nothing else responds to thiamine only, that quickly. Response can be in as little as an hr. or as long as 2-3hrs. You were with the buck...how long did it take for him to respond?
    Yes, you're overmedicating him...just wasting meds, because the dose your giving is for a 500# buck. 1/2cc of the 500mg Thiamine would have been plenty. But, you're lucky in that he will just pee out what he doesn't need.
    To figure the 10mg/kg on a 200# buck: you divide 200#/2.2=90 kilos. 90 kilos x 10mg=900mg Now, divide 900mg by the concentration per ml=200mg (AND YOU ARE USING 500MG/ML???) 900/200mg=4.5ml (cc)
    Must mean your wormer and CORID is working to get two clean fecals.

    If you are trying to blame the CORID for this...his onset is way past the time it would have taken for that to be his problem. You have something else going on with your babies. I and many others have used Corid sucessfully for years and polio has not been a problem. Poli from mold~feed,hay,water mold, ect...yes.
    1. Do NOT put baby goats in a pen that has been previously used for calves! I'm still having to use vaccines on baby goats for E. Coli brought in 3 yrs. ago by a dairy calf. Not to mention salamenella(sp),crypto,Johnes and a host of other diseases.

    Keep treating your baby every 6 hrs. like the vet told you...he's brought him back to life. I don't generally go against a vet...when someone has paid for his services. But do the math above for your next case...if there is one.
    JMO
    Kaye

    AND like Vicki said...you are having anemia issues from something...that needs to be addressed, before you loose them all.
     
  6. rg1950

    rg1950 New Member

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    Kaye, the vet diagnosed him, but admitted in the past he really don't know anything about goats. He was acting better at 10pm when I left. When I returned a few minutes ago around 2am, he was dead. He didnt pull through.

    I am not trying to blame the corid, I added the statement to let everyone know that he had been treated for cocci. He responded a few minutes after I gave him the shot, within an hour.

    Vicki, what, where, and how do I go about having a necropsy done? Since he died this morning, I could try and have him shipped there next week. I know I have to refridgerate him until shipment. Is this what I need? http://tvmdlweb.tamu.edu/ShippingHome.html

    I have to figure out what is going on. Also, the fecal test was clean, but I saw 1 stomach worm on the slide (not sure what the vet saw, he just said it was clean), and the test I run did not detect but a couple cocci, nothing alarming. He did not have diarreah. Also, we have 2 bucks that were in the pen with him. One is growing like he should (a boer), the other one is small for his age (nubian). Tara
     
  7. mysacrificenubians

    mysacrificenubians New Member

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    So sorry he didn't make it :(

    Hope you find out what happened. I know it's difficult dealing with deaths, I always tell myself that every unexplained death is a learning experience so that the other goats can benefit from me being more knowledgable.
     
  8. rg1950

    rg1950 New Member

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    I contacted TX A&M veterinary Medical Diagnostic Lab and made arrangements to take his body up there Monday. Right now I have him in an empty refrigerator in a bag on the front porch. They charge $25 to do an autopsy to determine the cause of death. I will update when I find out, if they can tell, what the cause of death was and whether or not he had polio. Hopefully they can help us narrow down what is going on here. He seemed to be improving, but his temperature was so low for no telling how long before we found him. Vicki, thanks for the recommendation. I would not have thought of necropsy.

    Tara
     
  9. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Since tissue and blood and some of the intestine, brain etc would be shipped to A&M by my vet, than I would just take him there. With the 93 degree temp it would have been a miricle to pull him around.


    With the other kid dead an this the same symptoms I would get him wrapped and into the fridge as fast as you can, honestly I would have dropped everything and took him to A&M instead of the vet when I found him with the temp and down. To save sure, but for necropsy. Vicki
     
  10. VickiLynne

    VickiLynne Member

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    So sorry for your loss. Hope you find out what caused it.

    Vicki in NC