Sick doe w/ hiccups and not cudding

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by oakandstone, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. oakandstone

    oakandstone New Member

    11
    0
    0
    I have this doe that has been and still is sick. My friend has been helping me try to figure out what is wrong with her but still now definite answer. She's running about 104-105 fever. No snot, little cough, no wheezing or slushing sounds coming from her lungs--I checked with a stethoscope. I was using Banamine for the fever (but she has been sick since Memorial day, May 26th) so I had to stop that on Sat the 31st or Sun the 1st. She is eating, drinking, and has a clean dry barn. I just bought her on May 22nd. We first thought it was shipping fever, but now I don't know. She has a thing for dirt that started about 4-5 days after she got sick. She has minerals, and baking soda, hay, alfalfa pellets, and I give a tiny amount of grain. I have also given aspirin for the fever. She of course has been grinding her teeth in the beginning but has not done that in about a week. Now she hiccups and it looks like she is chewing something but it is not cud. I can see that thing where the cud comes up moving back and forth on her neck and her sides get big and then go down but no real green cud comes up. The lady I bought her from came over Sat and said I should steal some cud from someone, so today I held my other does mouth open and my 7yr old daughter got the cud and we stuffed it in sick does mouth. I don't know if it really helped or not. It is really the most strange thing, she will be running a 105 fever and be up, walking around and following me into the big pasture, drinking, being a normal goat, but with her tail down and a little wobbly. She sometimes trembles. Then other times she acts like she is dying, she will be laying down in a corner with her head facing away and down. This goat has recieved Pen G, Max 200, Nuflor, Nutridrench, Vit B high potency, sulmet, LRS, Pedialite, Probios, Aspirin, Banamine, Thaimine, within the last 2.5 weeks.
    Lately I have not been doing anything for the 104 fever and waiting to see if she can bring the 105 fever down on her own, usually does to 104 sometimes 103.5 or so. So has anyone had a problem with a goat not bringing up grass/hay cud? I am just wondering if what she is bringing up is the dirt--is that possible? should I get some more cud from the other doe tomorrow? Any feedback would be welcomed.
    Emily
     
  2. Little Moon

    Little Moon New Member

    426
    0
    0
    I am by no means a goat guru, but I would tend to think that if something in her tummy(ies) were bothing her I would give probios and probably a vit. B shot. As for the fever, i think you need to find out the source before you treat with an antibiotic. If she has been eating dirt, is there a chance she picked up something from the dirt? Listerosis?

    Anne
     

  3. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    Pen G, Max 200, Nuflor, Nutridrench, Vit B high potency, sulmet, LRS, Pedialite, Probios, Aspirin, Banamine, Thaimine, within the last 2.5 weeks.
    .......................

    Hopefully your dosages on the above are just incredibly low and you have not gotten the correct dosages from us. Otherwise you have killed her rumen and maybe even caused damage to her liver. Especially with aspirin at the correct dosage.

    You need to keep her out of the dirt, is your soil clay? Clay is soothing to the stomach the problem is it is full of parasites. It is also a form of pica, in which they will also eat hair. Usually caused by vitamin and mineral defficency.

    Is there any chance you can take her to a teaching univeristy with a rumen cow so a transplant of her cud can be done by a professional?

    Also having her stomach chambers listened to by a professional.

    Along with not chewing her cud now she can not regulate her temp with it as hot as it is, this may not even be am elevated temp in her.

    No grain, get some good dry grass hay and give that to her with frequent walks on a leash so you can let her browse without eating dirt. The stemmier parts of the alfalfa are fine. She needs that rumen working again. Banamine will help calm the gut and take the edge off, she is likely in pain, it will stop the hiccops which are spasms. Being on it again and for longer than 6 days will have to be taken into consideration but her outcome looks bleak. Using things to buffer the liver helps. B vitamins, probiotics, kefir anything to stimulate her appetite and get her eating, while adding bacteria to her rumen, no more drugs orally.

    At a vet she could also be given appropriate fluids to fix the huge electrolyte imbalance she like is in, if not a vet I would put her on subq CMPK.

    My gut is telling me that her rumen is dead, the fever is the starting of infection from this. She can't make B vitamins in a dead or non functioning rumen so she is unsteady. Is her fever subsiding in the evening as the weather cools?

    I just think that stealing cud is not enough to jump start this rumen. That is dead of bacteria and tone.

    Disease doesn't make alot of sense because she would have more symptoms.

    She will likely succomb in the end to dehydration and pnemonia, or anemia from worms or cocci, but I think the underlying problem is her rumen. Why this happened is anyones guess, likely fighting with new penmates, a blow to the rumen. A fall in the trailer? Poison? Was she quaranteened alone?

    Regular doses of B vitamins injected will keep polio away and keep her from staggering. Hopefully the acidosis in her rumen hasn't blown a hole in her rumen or impacted, and like on another thread it hasn't caused problems with her other stomachs.

    This is likely way over what we can help with on the forum. It's classic on the drug list of treating symptoms without clear diagnosis.

    With pennicillin and aspirin on the list it's a red flag for me that nothing was given at correct dosages or for known reasons. Sorry not to offend...but in treating an animal for this long you have to have some sort of idea, and 24 to 36 hours on the same drug with no change you have to call in a vet for diagnosis or testing. Or at least change to a vet antibiotic, not move to yet another OTC.

    Sorry... I hope Kaye, Sara, Tim and the Ken's have ideas also. Vicki
     
  4. oakandstone

    oakandstone New Member

    11
    0
    0
    Vicki,
    Actually, all of those were not given at the same time, I do hope you didn't think I would do that!! She was really bad off in the beginning with all the teeth grinding, barely eating, Very high temp (got up to 107). My friend on the forum, who has been my mentor, has told me the dosage on all the meds and the time period to use them. The doe has been wormed and now that you mention the hair thing all the goats I bought I got from one place and they all love to eat my hair BEFORE I bought them!! HUMM do you know what they could be missing in their diet? My doe is peeing and pooing normally. As far as my soil, I live in Ga--GA red clay. Crud! I cut the grain out a few day ago, I just put a tiny bit in just to get her to eat the alfalfa pellets. We have also been cutting limbs and letting them pull the leaves off and she does eat the stems too. She no longer seems in pain, no grinding teeth for a few days. Is there any other indication I should look for - for pain? she gets Vit B shot everday and probios. You asked about her fever cooling in the evening-- yes and no. Some days it does and some day is doesn't.

    She could have been hit by my now sold, horned does. I know she did not fall on the ride home, my hubby was riding in the back with her.

    [
    What do you mean by this?
    What should I do now???
     
  5. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

    1,837
    0
    0
    My thoughts on this one, too. This doe needs professional help. She's way over the limit in being sick for us to diagnose this one.
    Kaye
     
  6. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    You took the words right out of my mouth. This doe has been sick for so long you are likely dealing with the end result rather than symptoms.

    Call your vet.

    Sara
     
  7. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    I think it sums it up quite nicely. You put Nigerian Dwarfs into horned boer goats pens...I won't even sell my big disbudded Nubians to someone with horned goats...can you imgaine a Nigerian Dwarf?

    When a doe gets hit hard enough to hurt her rumen it takes weeks of care to get her back as long as she does not have more internal damage. When her rumen stops working acidosis builds up, or the grain and hay impacts into the rumen and the rumen bacteria and villa, talked about in another thread, die.

    I agree with Sara that you are now dealing with the end result of something that happened likely the day or two after you brought her home, and not what is happening right now.

    I know you did not give all these meds at once, but you gave them all over a course of 2 weeks...pennicillin didn't work so you moved to tetracycline, banamine, subq ringers because he wasn't drinking for awhile...then nuflor then....all without a diagnosis...and with her rumen involved like this which is likely the original diagnosis none of what you did would have stopped what has happened other than the banamine.

    There are simply things that go wrong in goats that you have to use a vet for, or if we guess and guess wrong like with this you loose the goat. You also have to know that when guessing about diagnosis to get more than one opinion, with no rumen contractions and chewing cud, you would have known what you were dealing with the first day.

    There are pretty basic steps to diagnosing a condition...fever, heart rate, peeing, pooping, neuro signs and is she chewing cud. Vicki
     
  8. oakandstone

    oakandstone New Member

    11
    0
    0
    No, I didn't put my little goats into the pen with my big ones!! :nooo I have separate pens!! But now all of my original goats are gone except my 4 month old Boer (she is petite) that is getting pushed around by my new Nigerian yearling and my 3 month old MM
    If this is the end result why has she gotten better? She is eating, drinking, gets up on her own, walks..even ran yesterday, poops normal goat berries(unlike the tiny kid-like pellets he had before), peeing clear (not yellow like before). Can a ruminant still function like this if the rumen is shutting down or not working at all???

    Thanks for all the info you are all giving me.
    Emily
     
  9. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    Earlier you said the above. Now you say:

    Can you explain? I see two answers to our questions. Either you put them in with your horned goats or you didn't. We can't help if we don't know the whole story.

    Sara
     
  10. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    9,442
    1
    0
    You know with all this going on I personally think you need to take this goat to a vet and get professional advice and opinion on whether she is ruminating or not. Just guessing is not really an option if you want to know what is going on.
     
  11. oakandstone

    oakandstone New Member

    11
    0
    0
    Ok, I have 1 Boer 4 month old, 2 Nigerian Dwarfs, 1 yearling doe and (a 3 month old buck in his own pen) , and 1 MM 4 months in one pen up at my house. Down in the pasture, I did have my 8 horned goats and I put my 2 new MM both yearlings in the pen with them, I also have a MM buck in a separate pen too. Now my horned goats are gone, and it is only my 2 MM in the pasture and the MM buck in his pen next to the 2 girls. One of the MM doe (yearling) is sick. Sorry for the confusion. I have 6 goat areas not all are being used.
    emily

    no one still, answered my question...you if don't know just say so.
    If this is the end result why has she gotten better? She is eating, drinking, gets up on her own, walks..even ran yesterday, and today too, poops normal goat berries(unlike the tiny kid-like pellets she had before), peeing clear (not yellow like before). Can a ruminant still function like this if the rumen is shutting down or not working at all???
    thanks
     
  12. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    So you did have the new goat in with horned goats.

    What did your vet say when you called him/her? What did he/she find upon examination?

    Sara
     
  13. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    Is she chewing normal cud now?

    Vicki
     
  14. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

    2,730
    0
    0
    If a goat is eating, drinking, pooping and chewing cud, I'd think you have to have rumen function going on. I've heard some goats make a funny noise when they bring up their cud. If I want to know if my goat's rumen is functioning, I listen to it by either putting my ear to her left side or using a stethascope. If I can't hear anything, or if it's really sluggish, I take it to the vet, or at least call my vet for treatment suggestions. Kathie
     
  15. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

    1,837
    0
    0
    I DON'T KNOW! But, I will tell you...you have two options- take her to a vet or leave her alone and see if she gets better on her own.

    Yes...they can still live but will die from starvation/toxins/?bloat/etc... due to lack of the rumen working properly. A rumen can regenerate it's self given time, extra care and the proper nutrition- if it's not completely shut down. Reason all the ruminent builders were suggested.
    Kaye
     
  16. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    If a goat is eating, drinking, pooping and chewing cud, I'd think you have to have rumen function going on.
    .....................

    Kathie she hasn't said anything about chewing cud, why I asked...the last we heard she was not and it was burping spasms.

    ............................

    The point is, we aren't blameing in our answers, we are answering the questions. Then if you get defensive and come back on only telling us good stuff, well than why ask the questions in the first place? She isn't miraculously healed now after those other posts. It didn't sound as if you were going to use a vet is why I took the time to post to you. Now you aren't giving us any more information to go on, we dont' know if you did anything any of us suggested and if it helped.

    Yes she can walk around perfectly normal....then get a fever at night as she is recumbant, but she can not live without a functioning rumen. Peeing and pooping is not telling you anything about her rumen. Is she chewing a normal cud now? Vicki
     
  17. oakandstone

    oakandstone New Member

    11
    0
    0
    Just got back to the computer..I think she will live....My vet and another vet both told me that if her rumen was either shutting down or dead, she would not be eating (it would hurt way to bad), drinking, peeing or pooping. Also they said she MIGHT function for a day or two but would be down and probably dead w/in a couple of days. This has been going on for more than a few days. Today I stayed with her for a couple of hours just watching and listening to her. I have not noticed the hiccups anymore. She is eating great. After eating her rumen was a little mushy and then hardend up and gurgled some. I checked my other girl and her left side was the same. Both of the vets seem to think it is just her body recovering from what ever she had in the beginning and that she will be fine. I rubbed her throat today to see if I could feel anything moving up--didn't really feel much but it made her cough a little and she spit out some grass/hay?. She burped a little and chewed for a second but either it is not a big cud like normal or she is swallowing it really fast. I don't smell that cud smell though so I don't think she is really "cudding" yet. Dr. said that is fine. He said I should continue with the probios every day as I have been and not to give anymore Vit B.

    Emily
     
  18. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

    442
    0
    0
    I think Vicki is probably right on the temp regulation problems. But I will share one Ive seen that happened a few years back, with the night time fevers. Sick doe, got a bit better, then got sick again- turned out to be lung abcesses, from a pneumonia that didnt clear up. Vet did an ultrasound and I got to see them on the screen, must have been a dozen of them. (he said no, it wasnt lungworm, they looked different in ultrasound).

    An abcess might explain it, though it doesnt have to be in the lungs. I missed wether this was a baby, a dry doe or a doe in milk. If in milk- have you had her checked for mastitis? Gut abcesses do happen too.

    Just a wild thought- a "zebra", really, to share with the vet if this continues....
     
  19. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    He said I should continue with the probios every day as I have been and not to give anymore Vit B.
    .............................

    Probioitics only have one bacteria in them that is present in a rumen, the rest are bacterial flora in the intestine. If you do not continue with the B vitamins she will get weak in the rear again. They only make b vitamins in a healthy rumen. Vicki
     
  20. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    9,442
    1
    0
    Boy do I have to agree on the B Vitamins she needs them.