Selenium

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by BlueHeronFarm, Feb 1, 2008.

  1. BlueHeronFarm

    BlueHeronFarm New Member

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    When I look at the generic maps, like the one on Saanendoah, they show that - in general - Texas is in the zone of "adequate selenium".
    The map we link to in 101 is more detailed, but I still am not sure how to interpret it.
    We have not yet used Bo/Se - as I have not seen signs of us needing it. But I bought some yesterday, anyway.

    Am I the only one in this part of Texas (Diane, Lynn, Vicki, etc -- all of you included) who does not regularly use Bo/Se?
    And if so can you tell me your experiences using it and not using it? And how you feel about the map differences?

    Thanks!
     
  2. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I have a very dramatic case study for you. 2 kidding season ago a group of does kidded here. The next year they kidded at a friends house who does not use Bo-se. These same exact does at his house had exactly half as many kids as we had here. A doe who was turning 5 and had quads the year before only triplet-ed, while her half sister here at 5 had quints and a 2 year old daughter had quads. More kids more milk, and more sales.

    The rest of my bo-se info is pretty unsubstantiated because I started giving Bo-se pre breeding, pre kidding, during any time of stress or illness at the same time I finally got this whole calcium and copper issue figured out! So which one helped our pasterns, our cleaning after birth, the tough amniotic sacks, the feet problems, coat problems, overall health, lowered worm burdens even with more pasture????? I don't' know but I won't ever go back.

    We aren't really treating true defficency of selenium with 1cc per 40 pounds of selenium. We are only bolstering. Along with this bolstering you of course need dietary selenium and E in the diet. The only way you could utilize the selenium maps would be if you looked at the area of the country your hay comes from, your alfalfa pellets comes from and your grain is grown. I can do my alfalfa pellets and hay (now thanks to Karen) but certainly not anything else. Vicki
     

  3. Melissa

    Melissa New Member

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    plus, it's kinda' hard to overdose on selenium anyway.

    -Melissa
     
  4. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    Melissa......I'm not so sure about OD on selenium.....I tried to find some info that I was studying on it a while back, but it is slipping my mind right now as to where it was. I remember about selenium amounts in the body operate in a very narrow range though.....a little under, and it would be deficient....a little over, and it starts becoming toxic.
    I suspect that it would be hard to OD a goat on selenium through diet alone, because I suspect that goats do like most of the rest of us....they absorb what is needed, and pass the rest. As this process of digestion has to take place, I would think that the selenium levels raise and lower more slowly in the body, and there is more likely less chance of shock due to an overdose.
    But now with an injection, I would think that you could cause an immediate spike in selenium levels. If selenium levels were already high in an animal, I could see where problems could occur with OD.
    Like I said, the window of operation with selenium is pretty narrow....so not at all sure how much it takes either way to adversely affect a goat that would be considered OD.
    If I can find the info. , I will try to post it.......but otherwise, I hope Vicki or someone who knows, will post on this subject of OD just a little bit.

    Whim
     
  5. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    OK if I have said this once I probably have said it 100 times. 1st off the map you saw in Sannendoah is out dated there is an link here in 101 to the lastest map.
    2nd just because a county shows ok doesn't mean what your goats are eating is ok . You don't know where that grain was grown or hay a county over or in over used fields may have no selenium. There is only 1 place in the US that has an over abundance of selenium.
    3rd Sue Reith's article in goat 101 explains that if you use BoSE which is a balance of selenium along with Vit E then you don't get OD or poisoning. I have used her recommendations giving BoSe daily for over 10 days to one that was sick The idea of OD on BoSE to me is just rediculus when you consider all things. Sure if you gave straight selenium as some want to do with over the counter people stuff cause it is too much trouble to find a vet to RX it then you could OD but remember you use it with VIT E. Please go read Sue Reith's article and you will understand it better.
     
  6. BlueHeronFarm

    BlueHeronFarm New Member

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    Thanks guys - and keep it coming.

    I understand about the map(s) and about where our feed comes from, etc. I was using the one in 101...I just don't know what level on the map is considered adequate for goats - since goat health is not the point of that map. I mean the map has copper and iron info, too - but I do not know how to interpret it in terms of goat diet.

    I guess I was a little nervous about giving them too much - or maybe just didn't want to give something I wasn't sure they needed.

    This year will be interesting because we copper bolused, but didn't Bo/Se - so we can see if the tough placentas went away or not.

    As far as the multiple kids -- well, we're a dairy. So more kids is not better for us. That could, subconsciously, be part of why I have not used it yet. That probably sounds dumb, but...I don't WANT quads.

    I just got nervous when I read the package. Selenium IS toxic -- to all animals - when they have too much. I understand that it is also very necessary for good health, in the right amounts. I just am not sure on how you know if you need it and how you know what it is doing for you.

    I'll go read the Sue Reith article - but I would still love to have y'all share your experiences if you don't mind.

    PS - My vet is great. Didn't blink when I went in for oxytocin, Bo/SE and injectable CPMK. ...which also scares me now that I have read the label. Sigh.
     
  7. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    I relied on making my own per Sondra the first few yrs... could not get BoSe... I just got a bottle in Nov. I used it on my does prekidding... but did not have it prebreeding. I will try that this coming yr...

    I admit I have not given it to all my kids this yr... not sure when I can get a second bottle... so being stingy {{blush}}... I did give it to 2 that seemed quieter... and 1 when I had accidently said who to give it to wrongly... {{shake}}... we did give it to the 2 kids last night... they were not showing real signs of needing it.. but were not wanting their bottles (might have nursed on mom... but since we did not see it... I would not count it...)...

    If I can ensure a ready supply I WILL use it.
     
  8. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Yes I have made my own from people stuff but was absolutly positive I had the same amounts of selenium and VIT E as does BoSE
    also Lynn I give all babies extra Vit E one capsul 400IU on birth.
     
  9. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    I did the first few yrs... trying to figure out WHY I forgot that this yr!
     
  10. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Because like me there are too many things going on and we don't have it written down:) and in front of us.
     
  11. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    As far as the multiple kids -- well, we're a dairy. So more kids is not better for us.
    ............................................

    Don't fall into this trap. You need kid sales in your dairy. You should be marketing kids so they are picked up by the first week...getting $100 to $300 a kid the first week is a huge chunk of change. All our dairy doelings out of crossbreds bred to our best LaMancha buck went for $100 at birth and that was in the late 80's and 90's...all our Nubian doelings went for $200 to $300 back in those days out of our buck Eric. Why the best investment you can have at your dairy is a buck out of so and so's herd. No way can you make a living just off fluid milk and it's products. Why staying purebred with a buck from "someone" not 'anyone' is important, otherwise milk saanens. Also the more kids born, the more milk the doe makes.

    One more kid here out of of my does could mean $2100 to $7300+ more dollars. For $20 worth of bo-se a year. Think about having that money just for paying outside labor! Vicki
     
  12. BlueHeronFarm

    BlueHeronFarm New Member

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    Oh-- we're TRYING to sell the kids... just not having much luck this year.
    Sigh. I think that's why I am dreading the first birth -- which is looking huge enough to be quads.
     
  13. Theresa

    Theresa New Member

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    Don't forget to use the internet to sale kids. I have sold kids and does just by advertising on the yahoo groups. You might be supprised how far someone will come to buy a kid if they think they are getting a good deal. Start now so that people know that you will soon have kids for sale. Even if you don't take deposits you will have a list of people to contact to come and pick up the kids.
     
  14. Katarina

    Katarina New Member

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    do you know for a fact where the grains, and alfalfa, etc that you are feeding your goats was grown?
     
  15. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    """do you know for a fact where the grains, and alfalfa, etc that you are feeding your goats was grown? """

    That is the very reason that I won't recommend somebody that is just getting started out in goats, to go buy this and that grains, and start mixing their own feeds. I try to tell folks to purchase a feed that is designed for goats......there will at least be a label on the bag that will give you max. and min. amounts of this and that.
    I know that you're gonna say that there is a bunch of nothing but filler in a bag of pelleted goat chow(s)......but really if you think about it, what is the hull of a sunflower seed worth nutritionally, or the husk of some of the other grains.
    I don't think at the price of BOSS and corn , and other grains right now, that I could even mix my own feeds and save a dime on it anyway.
    I also feed pelleted alfalfa, over A. hay, because I can assume that since it has a nutritional tag on it, that at least samples have been taken from each batch run to insure that it meets the minimums listed on the tag.

    Now I'll tell ya, after the dog food scare, I lost a lot of confidence in our animal feeds company's. .....but it does appear that some measures have been taken to correct those problems.....so for now, I'm gonna have to trust their labs and chemist to formulate a nutrition feed that is best for my goats. I just don't have the knowledge or equipment to take a sample of this and that, and try to figure out what its nutritional values are.

    Just-a-Jabbering.....Whim
     
  16. BlueHeronFarm

    BlueHeronFarm New Member

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    Yeah-- we were hoping people would find our website. Not really working.
    Which groups do you suggest over there? Or should I just search for dairy goat?
    Please excuse my ignorance.
     
  17. BlueHeronFarm

    BlueHeronFarm New Member

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    No - but I don't think it makes sense to just assume it was grown in a selenium deficient area. Plus we use a good goat pellet. I'd have to check the levels, but I think it is high in selenium - as well as copper, though we still have had to bolus.

    When I read the Sue Reith article, it seems she uses it as treatment in the way we use B vitamins-- to stimulate immune systems. It did not read as if she gives it prophylactically - but rather as treatment for unthriftiness or other problems.. This is what I am trying to get a handle on. Why some people just give it and some don't.

    I understand, now, that it won't hurt to give it, I just am not sure that I want to give them things that won't serve a purpose.

    Like I said - I HAVE it this year. I am just not sure about giving it "just because." Other than the multiple kids, I was wondering what benefits people see from using it as a standard part of management.
     
  18. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife New Member

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    But lots of other people in the same goat club use Bo-se who use the same pellet as you do...NOT saying that you should just because they do, but that obviously not everyone thinks that the laquesta has sufficient selenium...in fact the same person who recommended laquesta to us is the same person who said that we ought to be giving selenium because she had noticed issues in her herd that she and the vet concluded were selenium deficiency related "even though the maps say that we should be fine".
     
  19. BlueHeronFarm

    BlueHeronFarm New Member

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    Yeah-- I know she uses it - and y'all use it. And most everyone else, we know. ;)

    I'm just thinking I haven't seen anything that looks like selenium deficiency yet...although our copper issues could also have be selenium related, I suppose. I guess the picture on that will become more clear this kidding season.
    I am wondering between our feed, minerals and BOSS if we aren't getting adequate selenium.

    I'm not anti Bo/Se -- I just want to understand why I give things, if I give them.
     
  20. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Than do a blood test. Give Bo-se and then blood test, see how much it changes with just 1cc per 40 pounds. It only moves me from below normal to normal. But like with bolusing for copper (which I find ironic since I don't bolus anyone but incoming stock, my bucks and only use a high copper mineral) and you don't have a problem with bolusing for copper yet won't inject selenium :) A much more minor mineral than copper. And how many of the club members have liver biopsy tests on their farm? Or have evern done a selenium blood test? To treat true defficency in selenium you would have to use either alot more bo-se or move to Mu-se or one of the other 1cc per 200 or 300 pound injections, give it every 3 or 4 months etc.. or get a perscription for a mineral that contains alot more selenium. No grain or mineral in Texas can have anymore than the normal amount of USDA regulated amounts of selenium without a perscription, it's against the law.

    So for myself, I am not treating defficency (other than in a doe having high multiples, she simply can grow 1 or 2 nice kids, but 3 or 4 ....or even 3 in my young FF...one would be weaker, poor suck reflex, down in the back legs, which means weak in all major muscles (which includes the heart)...so for me I use it...it sort of completes the package with the other nutritonal programs I use. If you choose to use selenium like Sue does, wouldn't before being bred, before kidding and right as you are born be the perfect times to use it? vicki