Sables/Saanens-breeding?

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by Kaye White, Nov 6, 2007.

  1. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    Ok...this is going to sound so "newbie" but I can't seem to get this sable thing down!

    Question: If you breed a Sable to a Saanen what are the kids reg. or recorded or whatever????? I realize they have to have color to be a Sable and I just learned that a Sable can be "made" by breeding a Purebred Saanen to an American Saanen. :really To show my ignorance...I thought they could only be from Purebred Saanen parents.

    Anyone want to take this one on and help out someone not understanding the finesse behind this sable thing??
    Kaye
     
  2. Tim Pruitt

    Tim Pruitt New Member

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    I think Sables are really neat. I like the different colors. I don't have a clue though as to the rules that govern this breed. It must be the American that the color is coming from. Does that mean that all Sables are American?
     

  3. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I was on the breed standard commitee through all this and couldn't begin to tell you, I just kept voting YES!! :) I tell you Donna Palmer knows this stuff inside and out...I am sure Sable folks do to :)

    But you have to get and accept, which some folks don't, that saanens are sables, and colored saanens were actually the norm to begin with. Only the USA chose to breed white ones. And Sables have been in recorded grade as purebreds and amercians, mostly with errors on their paperwork since they were in recorded grade being graded up, where they were actually supposed to just stay sable american or purebred. Now plucked from recorded grade, they are back where they should have always been. They were only supposed to be placed in RG until their numbers were higher. Imagine the numbers of colored saanens who should have always been in the Sable registery on hold, instead of being destroyed. The Sable info has been in the ADGA directory for years, just ignored. The Sable folks did not ignore it!

    I found it all to be really intriguing, and when you see pictures of them, which we saw alot, you can certainly tell they are saanens and not alpines. Vicki
     
  4. MayLOC

    MayLOC New Member

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    From what I understand, sables can be registered from sables and sables can be reg. from saanens, but saanens cannot be reg. from sables. :yeahthat So if you get white kids from sable parents (they don't meet sable standards of course) but they are not registerable as saanens either, they are: experimentals and then you must breed up to sable or saanen from there, which would require 3 gen. of color to get the sable standard correct. So there can be american and purebred and grade. It all makes you want to go........ :crazy :crazy

    On the below website, the paragraph listed under: STEP ONE: explains how after 3 generations of color, they will be pulled from the experimental books.


    I got the info. below in bold from this site, I am sure you have read it, but it explains it as much as I have seen?
    http://adga.org/sable-breeders2nd-04.htm

    The Purebred Sable herd book

    Sire and Dam are both Purebred Saanen and the animal meets Sable breed standard.

    Sire and Dam are both Purebred Sable and the animal meets Sable breed standard.

    Sire and Dam are a combination of Purebred Sable and Purebred Saanen and the animal meets Sable breed standard.

    In addition, the purebred herd book will be open, just as the LaMancha purebred herd book is. This means that when an individual animal's Sable ancestors have been in the American herd book for three generations, or if one parent has 3 generations of American Sable and the other is Purebred Sable, its offspring will be eligible for registry in the Purebred Sable herd book if that offspring also meets Sable breed standard.

    Sables registered with AGS will automatically be accepted for registration by ADGA in the Purebred Sable registry upon application and in compliance with the rules for registering an AGS registered animal with ADGA.



    The American Sable Herd Book.

    Sire and Dam are both American Saanen and the animal meets Sable breed standard.

    Sire and Dam are a combination of American and Purebred Saanen and the animal meets Sable breed standard.

    When one parent is an American Sable and one parent is an American or Purebred Saanen or Sable and the animal meets Sable breed standard.

    When one parent is a Purebred Sable and one parent is an American Saanen or Sable and the animal meets Sable breed standard.

    Females only can be registered as American Sables when the sire is an American or Purebred Sable and the dam is 75% or higher Saanen/Sable genetics in the Grade, Grade Experimental or Experimental registries. The doe to be registered, as well as her dam and her maternal grandparents must meet correct Sable breed standards including color.



    Grade Sable herd book

    Animals of at least 50% Saanen/Sable genetics may be entered into the Grade Sable herd book on application by their owners. The Grade Sable herd book will parallel the existing grade herd books.



    SOME COMMON QUESTIONS:

    What happens if a white offspring is born to a Sable dam?

    This individual will be eligible for the Experimental herd book, as it does not meet the Sable breed standard. Then it is the option of the owner to decide to breed it to a Sable buck to breed towards the American Sable herd book, a Saanen buck to breed toward the American Saanen herd book, or another breed for upgrading into another American program by the rules of the Experimental registry.
     
  5. SherrieC

    SherrieC New Member

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    Darn you all answered all the questions and didn't save any for me! : )
     
  6. MayLOC

    MayLOC New Member

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    :biggrin figured you would be on to add some more :biggrin
     
  7. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    This is the scenerio I will be dealing with. A Sable doe is coming here to have a uterine infection cleaned up and the only thing I have to breed her to is a Saanen buck.??? I'd at least like for the owner's to have a chance of getting a Sable kid, rather than breed her to a Togg or Obie buck. AI is OUT OF THE QUESTION...Not that sure I can get this doe to breed. :?

    Thanks guys,
    Kaye
     
  8. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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    See it started with a few white goats now she is just treating a sable ..sure before you know it she will have some of her own :woohoo


    Patty
     
  9. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    I don't think so!! Heck, I can't even figure out how to make one!! :sigh
    :rofl A good friend of mine keeps trying to get me to "COME TO THE DARK SIDE" (said in a Darth Vadar voice) of Saanens! :rofl

    I've got all the breeds I can keep track of and even THINK about trying to show! :tearhair
    Kaye
     
  10. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    Boy, no fair answering ALL of the questions! Finally, questions that I have the answers for, down pat.... :sniffle

    Kaye, there is always a "possibility" that you can throw a Sable breeding that doe to your Saanen.
    Some lines, both purebred and American seem to throw color more often than others (like CherryPines
    and Aspen Hills) and still have very fine animals.

    P.S. If you get confused about the "not all black, don't quite look like an Alpine" colors, like PEACH,
    then it gets really really fun. Personally, I think they should have let Sables be Saanens in the first
    place. That way folks aren't keeping an animal just because it is colored (yet less than ideal conformation or milking ability) nor are very fine animals getting put on the meat truck just because they are colored!
    With that said, we have joined the insanity and are raising Sables as well as Saanens. :crazy
     
  11. MayLOC

    MayLOC New Member

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    awww, sorry...I was waiting for some additional comments from you saanen gals though :biggrin.

    I agree and think what a shame you can get sables from saanens, but if you end up with a white out of sables she has to be called an "experimental" instead of a saanen and bred back up :really.

    Anybody else interested in the top 10 lactation leaders in sables vs. saanens; very interesting I think. :really
     
  12. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    I do know my Purebred saanen doe has the sable gene...her littermate brother was a sable. So it could happen with my own doe and her doeling. Would be my luck...long as it doesn't come out Togg colored! :crazy Then I'd just have to DNA the kid to satisfy my own curiosity. Though this does dam did have a togg colored sable and owner DIDN'T have a Togg buck anywhere remotely close to him! :? :lol I wanted that kid sssoooo bad, but owner wouldn't sell her....she hung up in the fence and broke her neck before breeding. Keep telling him he should have sold me that doeling! :sniffle

    Geeezzz....It's enough to drive one MORE insane! :biggrin
    Kaye
     
  13. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    Yes, Togg colored sable is very possible...that is how Elsie Hausman ended up with a Sable (her friend Klisse Goode convinced her she needed that one! ) even though all Elsie breeds are Toggs. :)
    BTW, to shift to another topic within the topic, Elsie has some pretty good milking Toggs, and I know she breeds almost all of her first fresheners Boer...she has been on milk test forever. Curious to know if she has seen any negative correlation with milk and breeding to a "less milky" buck?