Re-arranging kids.

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by stacy adams, Jan 8, 2008.

  1. stacy adams

    stacy adams New Member

    993
    0
    0
    Now that we've had a discussion on "going in" the doe to confirm/pull kids. I'd like to hear from some of you that have had to rearrange them. The one time I tried, the head was turned back and it was like working in a slippery, tight Pringles container. Does one normally try to push it back into the uterus for the room to reposition the head? Is there a chance for it (when doing that) to become tangled with another kid trying to come out?
    The pictures that I've seen in books, don't really resemble anything that I've felt and I'd like to hear from those of you that have been there. :help2
     
  2. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    1
    0
    It can be a train wreck to go out to a doe who has pushed for hours, even overnight, with kids all bunched up at the cervic with usually a leg back on a kid, a head back on a kid or a kid coming sideways, blocking the entrance for everyone. Most of the time you can't push them back in. You can elevate her uterus to fall back, with bales of hay etc.. In those kinds of instances you just hope for the best. Go in cleanly and follow the body part at the cervic, never letting your hand stop touching that same kid. Find a head or it's rear legs and pull the kid out. Usually the doe is exhausted and you want the kids out faster than calcium injections and oxytocin and the like will start contractions....afterward with a flacid uterus not contracting, she will do poorly or bleed to death if she doesn't get calcium, fluids and oxytocin to tone the uterus, using oxytocin in the uterus on your gloved hand and flushing with tetracycline after she passes her placenta.

    In a normal kidding, I feel for presentation. I want to feel that first kid with two front hooves and teeth. Let her push several times and feel the head come down with the feet. IF there is only one foot with a first kid, than I push against the head and find the leg, bringing it down and forward out. Head back is the worst, I fish a mens workboot shoelace over the head like a halter and pull down while I pull on the front legs. I would like to invent something to clamp on the mouth, in with the teeth and over the mussle, like you can to with your fingers, if mine were alot stronger to assist in pulling. Side of the body presentation is eaiser when she hasn't pushed alot, just move your hand to the right or left, looking for the head or the rear feet...when I do assist (I hate saying pulling because there is very little pulling if you simply fix the presentation) with a breech I hold onto the umbilical cord about 4 inches from the body, so it will not tear as the kid is delivered. Clamping and cutting it is the best thing to do. Two kids coming at the same time is of course scarry because you don't know if they are fused. Pushing one head back, and then once again, running your hand down the head making sure the feet you pull forward are connected to the head of the kid you are moving into the cervic. Remember, front legs have knees, back legs have elbows.

    If everyone this year did more pelvics, before, during and after labor and delivery, you will gain soo much confidence. Learn what a closed cervics feels like. What an open and ready to push cervic feels like, the difference between an older doe who is pushing 5 times, and the kid is nearly out, and a FF who pushes 5 times, and has 25 more to go before even getting the head engaged. What a normal placenta feels and looks like, what an empty uterus feels like.

    We all will loose kids, we all will have horrible deliveries, and a death of a doe. But your numbers will go way down if you stop guessing that everything is fine and feel for it.

    Obviously go in clean, wear gloves if you prefer, use antibiotics correctly and know why you are using them. Vicki
     

  3. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

    1,837
    0
    0
    :biggrin :yeahthat
    Whew, thanks Vicki...
    Kaye
     
  4. Tricia

    Tricia New Member

    188
    0
    0
    Great post, hope it moves to "Goatkeeping".
     
  5. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    Will do. :D

    Sara
     
  6. Chaty

    Chaty New Member

    398
    0
    0
    I had a train wreck in a way this summer as a little doe presented with her shoulder and I couldnt get to the head ...the doe was older and simply pushed her out with me manipulating the shoulder and she is doing fine...that was the weirdest delivery I have ever had and hope not to see again...this was triplets..
     
  7. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    1
    0
    The problem isn't that a doe can't eventually push out a malpositioned kid without problems, eventually. But when she doesn't concieve next year, it is going to come back to haunt you wondering...did she rip her cervic and now she has scar tissue. Did the site get infected and now she has a uterine infection with scar tissue so now she is not getting bred. I know I come at all of this differently because of my horse background, where a baby was worth so much as was her mom, a National competitor.

    If we were all getting thousands of dollars for our kids, imagine. But even for me, getting as much as I do, it's the much I need to live on! Vicki
     
  8. stacy adams

    stacy adams New Member

    993
    0
    0
    Vicki, I had this running through my head all night, trying to figure out how you were holding the umbilical cord (??) once you realize it's a breach, do you slide your hand to it's tummy to find the cord? pull it toward you first? aren't they easily broken? :sigh
    Remember, I am a blond!
     
  9. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    1
    0
    That's exactly what I do, once the belly is out and you can see the umbilical cord, reach up and pull it out, not putting any strain on the cord attached at the belly. If you are pulling out with your left hand grab the cord with your left. If there is little slack, I will just cut it, then clamp it once the kid is out. IF you keep pulling a breech you can pull the cord out of the belly (instant death) or tear it from the stump, at the belly. IF you clamp an umbilical cord to close to the body to stop bleeding the blood pressure drops and the kid fades, let off the clamp and it comes back to life. So you have to clamp just the bleeding vien, not an easy thing to get to, or to stop it from bleeding. One of those things like epi if you don't have hemostates with you, your doomed. Vicki
     
  10. Karen Bailey

    Karen Bailey New Member

    141
    0
    0
    Vicki,
    Thanks for that clarification. I was trying to visualize bringing the kid out with a hand and arm in there at the same time, and couldn't see being able to get past the pelvic bones with all that! :duh
     
  11. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

    2,730
    0
    0
    I had tangled kids once. The buckling was first and had his head turned back. He was a big boy. I reached in and thought I had the head pulled forward. It was really his sister coming right on top of him. I couldn't push them back or get them untangled so I rushed them to the vet. She did a standing C section and successfully delivered two live babies, but the doe's uterus was badly torn and the only way of saving her would have been to spay her. The doe was shocky by this time and could no longer keep standing. I had them euthanize her. My friend suspected she had been in labor for a while, but if this is so, she hadn't been showing signs until I found the bubble and saw her pushing. This was only about 20 minutes before we went in to assist. We were watching this doe close as she was the last of the CAE positive does I have owned (she was a finished champion) and the kids were to be pulled immediately. After this experience, I have decided that in the case of a trainwreck, I will not try and untangle them myself. The doe will be rushed to the vet.