Quints?

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by cmharris6002, Dec 29, 2007.

  1. Ashley

    Ashley Active Member

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    Anything I've ever read on it shows most grasses as having MORE calcium than phosphorus, BUT they are both in small quantities and don't have AS MUCH more calcium than phosphorus as legumes.

    This is why you can feed horses just grass hay and they do fine. But add grain and you can get in trouble.

    For example, bermuda grass has .30 percent calcium and .19 percent phosphorus, so it's got more calcium than phosphorus. However, alfalfa has 1.24 % calcium and .22% phosphorus, an much higher ratio, which is why it's so great for calcium.

    What I'm saying is that yes, we need alfalfa to balance out the grains, which have an inverted ratio, but grass STILL does have more calcium than phosphorus. But grass hays cannot make up for the imbalance grain creates as well as alfalfa can.

    Don't mean to get off track, just didn't want people going around thinking grass hay has an inverted ratio like grain does.
     
  2. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    The only hay analysis I have seen is on coastal bermuda, red top cane hay, sudan, oat hay and world feeder bermuda, and all were higher in phosphrous than calcium. Perhaps this is just local to Texas? I know the calcium levels in the hays were negligable. Hay analysis isn't done here before you purchase hay, it's what we send in to A&M ourselves once we purchased hay...well except for the world feeder because they guy was soo proud of his protein :) Vicki
     

  3. Ashley

    Ashley Active Member

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    Really, that is interesting, maybe when they are specializing these grassing for protein, they are losing the calcium production?

    But horses just wouldn't hardly be growing if they didn't get enough calcium to lay bone, so the ratio must be good, at least around here. No one seems to have a problem with just pasture.
     
  4. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    What is your pasture and what type of grass hay are you talking abt Ashley??

    Chris how's your doe?
     
  5. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Guest

    She is not getting better, or worse :( I can't get her to eat, although she will nibble grass hay (brome).

    I am giving 30cc CMPK 2x/day, 5cc B complex fortified 1x/day, probios 1x/day, and warm kefir 2 or 3x/day.

    This morning she took 3/4c warm kefir sucking it out of a 35cc oral dose syringe.

    She has 40 days left in this pregnancy, there is no way she will make it unless there is some drastic improvement soon :down

    I need the info on aborting her so that I know what to do and have everything on hand. We're not there yet, but I have to be prepared. I'll do anything I can to save her.

    I have to beg the Vet for BoSe, I don't think he is in the office today so I might have to wait until Wed.

    Christy
     
  6. SherrieC

    SherrieC Active Member

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    I wish I could have had the meds to abort my angel doe (avatar). sniff. {{Hugs}} Christy
     
  7. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Guest

    Re: Quints/Prednisolone ?

    I talked to the vet. He wants to put her on prednisolone (PREDEF 2X) along with what I'm already doing. What are you thought on this? What is the goat doseage? He said it is unlikly to cause her to abort. But if we don't see improvment after three days aborting her is his reccomendation.

    Christy
     
  8. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    UMM interesting here is what Goat 101 Saanendoah.com had to say abt doses etc:
     
  9. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Guest

    Ugggh! He said this was different than DEX. I don't want to give it to her without someone here giving some advise about it first, but I will pick it up. If I have to about her, I worry that she will go into shock from loosing all that mass while being ill.

    Christy
     
  10. KJFarm

    KJFarm Senior Member

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    Predef 2X is a common drug used for Ketosis in cows. My veterinary drug book says that it is a potent corticosteroid used for treatment of bovine ketosis. Administration to ketotic cows causes blood glucose levels to return to normal levels followed by a reduction in blood and urine ketones. Generally, there is a concomitant increase in appetite and rise in milk production to previous levels within 3-5 days following injection.
    Years ago, I had a big old Saanen doe that went off just like your doe, she had about six weeks till kidding. I worked myself to death trying to keep her up and going. I had a vet tell me to get a 1 1/2" needle, catch her rumen as it rose up, stick the needle in (you will know if you've hit the mark - rumen fluid will come out), then put 8 oz. Propylene Glycol right into the rumen. I only had to do this twice and she did a turn around, kidded normally with 3 babies, and never had another problem. You have to do this a clean as possible, so that you don't get an infection started.
    Hope your doe pulls through for you!
     
  11. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Guest

    Re: Quints/Predef 2X?

    This is what he gave me for the Predef 2X, 2cc/100# IM My induce labor in late pregnancy. I dont want to start this without hearing from Vicki or Kaye first.

    He gave me the BoSe what doseage and how often?

    I am using Cal-Dex CMPK but he gave me a bottle of Dextrose Solution 50% How should this be used?

    Thanks!
     
  12. KJFarm

    KJFarm Senior Member

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    The Dextrose 50% would do her more good if given IV. It is very likely that the Predef 2X will cause her to go into labor. The dosage for BO-SE is 1cc per 40#.
    I don't want to be the bearer of doom, but when a doe gets to this point, this far out from kidding, you sometimes have to decide which is more important to you - the doe or the kids she's carrying. Lots of times the kids will die from the toxicity of the ketones. It's a hard call to make, but if this doe is valuable to you, you may want to induce labor to save her life. Hope this all turns out for the best for you and her.
     
  13. Ashley

    Ashley Active Member

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    Sondra, it is a mix, but mostly fescue and bermuda.
     
  14. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    We used dex at 1cc per 100 pounds once a day and didn't have the does abort, only with lutelyse did we have the abortions we wanted to save the does.

    It honestly was always a train wreck. I would have my vet out, she would IV calcium, tube PG, leave me a list of things to do, and the does always died, had to be aborted to make it to the end, and even does who we would induce early, although the kids should have been savable we couldn't get them to breath even with dopram. My vet was out of her mind that she could not turn the ketosis info from cows into a manageable system for my goats.

    I haven't been down that road with the alfalfa feeding 24/7/365. Even if they balk at grain she should not be refusing her hay/alafalfa pellets.

    If you do induce you will have to expect retained placenta and a doe who doesn't push. Not enough calcium in the system gives you sluggish pushing, so expect this, pull kids, get oxytocin to use on a gloved hand if she doesn't dialate. Give calcium during the whole delivery and afterward and try to bring her into milk.

    Something is not working for her in your management, find it and fix it, because it will get worse and worse as she milks more and more and has more kids each year. Vicki
     
  15. Well...have you checked to see if she is in Ketosis? Smell her breathe...if she is it will smell very sweet like juicey fruit gum. The Predef will help with that. Then its best to IV Dextrose...DONT give SQ. If you do it will come up a nasty knot that will get infection then a whole different bag of worms.

    Also check for milk fever....most people over look that and its REALLY easy to check for....touch the ears. If cold then she has milk fever if warm then she is fine.

    Check to see if her rumen is still working....should sound like a toliet flushing a couple of time a minute. If not...then you can force her rumen back to working. That is a harder process but can be done of the phone.

    Might want to just check those things out.

    Ken in MI
     
  16. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Guest

    She ate a cup of warm kefir, a hand full of kale and a peanut butter sandwich for dinner. I tried pellets and grain but that was all I could get her to eat.

    Breath, normal
    Temp 101.6
    Ruman sounds, weak

    My objective today is to steal cud from another doe for her without loosing any fingers

    Christy
     
  17. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    that temp is going down isn't it? use a piece of pvc pipe or something in the mouth.
     
  18. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Guest

    She died this morning. The vet says she had a twisted/ruptured bowel. She was carring bbbd quads. :down :sniffle

    Christy
     
  19. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    I'm so sorry Christy. You did everything you could. I know how difficult it is to loose a beloved doe, especially one carrying babies. We lost one of our best does 2 weeks prior to kidding last year... she was pregnant with twin does out of a much anticipated AI breeding. Hang in there.

    Take care,
    Sara
     
  20. Ravens Haven

    Ravens Haven New Member

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    OMG...I am so sorry Christy, this is awful...who would have thought a ruptured/twisted bowel. Sending hugs your way...


    my thoughts are with you,
    Autumn