Quints?

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by cmharris6002, Dec 29, 2007.

  1. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Guest

    I am having some trouble with my big 7yr old doe. She is due 2/10 this is her 7th freshening, she had twins as a yearling and has had triplets or quads every year since. She was in perfect shape when she was bred in Sept. She previously freshened 12/15/16 so milked for 2 weeks shy of a year. She had a touch of milk fever a week after her last freshening but it was caught early and promptly brought under control. Last week I suspected she was going to go off, she missed a couple feedings, but then she went back to the alfalfa pellets again.

    Well, now she is not eating her pellets very well, just a couple of bites. For a week I have had her on 30cc CMPK injectable twice a day, 5cc B complex fortified eod, 5cc ADE injectable eod, Nutra Drench 2X day, probios once a day. She is huge. Her girth has grown so much in the past week I can not get my sewing tape around her belly. Best I could measure it is 65”. She is 30” at the shoulder and has only 9” clearance from the ground to her belly. Even years when she has had quads she could always fit through the small goat door that keeps the llama out of their goat yard, today I noticed she can’t fit through it anymore. I took her out the big door so we could go for a walk and get some much needed exercise. She willing came with me because I had peanuts. But since the ice storm the are lots of trees down and she can’t get over them, we didn’t get very far. At the beginning of the month she was standing on her hind legs at the hay feeder looking normal big

    Have those of you who have had quints or very large quads noticed calcium related problems late pregnancy? Anything else I should be doing for her? How precarious do you think my situation is with this doe?

    Christy
     
  2. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    We get several sets of quads every year (Even old Torrie had quads this year... at age 10!). I've only ever had one set of quints... our 2002 ADGA Spotlight Sale purchase, GCH Lakeshore Farms Just-Tina 5*M had quints as a first freshening 2 year-old. She wasn't big in the least, in fact I thought she was going to have twins. She popped out 5 happy, healthy kids that were all 6+ pounds. She never missed a beat and even carried an appropriate amount of fleshing. She DID milk really well that year!

    We haven't had the problems you mention. As you said, exercise is sooo important. Although we live in the frozen north, I make my girls exercise. I will feed grass and oat hay inside the barn but to get the alfalfa the girls have to walk outside to the pasture. We use a snowblower to make paths to the outside feeders. We also get lots of ice here, especially in the coming months. I sprinkle turkey grit on the paths twice a day to provide some 'grip' so they don't injure themselves. This works very well for us. Nubians and LaManchas love to eat so feeding alfalfa outside certainly works for us. :D

    Perhaps someone with more experience in this will chime in. Good luck with her Christy.

    Sara
     

  3. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Dove had quads as a 2 year old 2nd freshener last year, shocking because although out of a quad litter herself, expecting her to triplet, she was no larger than anyone else. Debut, her dam had quints last year, our first one that all kids lived, but didn't have any problems, she was 6.

    With the bout of milk fever, and now this, there is something about her or your program that is not meeting the needs of heavy milkers or heavy bred does. Is she on grain? Is she getting soo much she has stopped eating her alfalfa pellets? What protein are you at with your grain and alfalfa? Too much protein and they aren't able to utilize all the calcium you feed.

    Since calcium is cumulative, you may have to keep up the calcium until freshening and through to kidding, or next she will be in ketosis, and your only way out of it is to abort the pregnancy.

    Whats the breakdown of your diet for your milkers? Vicki
     
  4. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Guest

    I also have a lot of quads and trips out of 1stff and 2ndff 2yr olds, yearlings have twins.

    I feed 50lbs of 16% alfalfa to 12 does, 25lbs in the morning and 25 in the evening. They get this everyday milking or bred. At 100 days bred I wormed with Ivermectin Plus. At that point I started with the grain. It is not much, 2lbs mixed with 25lbs alfalfa twice a day, for all of them. They have Sweetlix minerals and grass hay. They have been bolused every four months according to weight. My grain mix is,
    6 parts oats
    6 parts barley
    1 part black oil sunflower seeds
    1 part calf manna
    1 part beet pulp-dry

    When the does are in milk they get 11/2 -2lbs of grain a day. I know it is not much but they give 10-12lbs a day and are fleshed out nicely on that amount.

    Today we cut the goat door bigger and cut limbs to make a nice walking trail. I don’t usually give my goats a lot of treats but they will do anything for peanuts. So, that is how I get them out for a walk since the weather has been so bad. I can pin point her trouble to the ice storm, which may have stressed her and also they were unable to get out for a few days.

    Thanks,
    Christy
     
  5. Halo-M Nubians

    Halo-M Nubians New Member

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    She sounds huge! I wonder if she could have excess amnio fluid or something?? I know that can make it hard for them to take in the calories they need. No first hand experience with that myself tho..
    I have a doe that has had 2 sets of quints and a few sets of quads. She gets very large-but all out to the side. she does have a very hard time getting up and down towards the end, but never any milk fever issues or going off feed.
     
  6. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Their diet sounds wonderful. Perhaps you could give her more of a grain ration than the others? Bo-se shots monthly for awhile, and is she eating her minerals well? Any swelling in the feet yet? Vicki
     
  7. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    Isis had quints one year. She started to go off feed about three days prior to kidding. I gave her propylene glycol to keep her going. Right after she kidded, she ate lots of hay and some grain. The next day, she was depresses and wouldn't eat. The vet gave her B complex, BoSe and Norcalciphos. He said the fluid loss from having 5 kids was part of the cause of the MF. She recovered.Last spring I lost a doe to MF four days after she had quads. I didn't catch it soon enough and she didn't respond when I treated her. Neither of these does had any problems when they had 2 or 3 kids. From now on, any goat who has 4 or more kids gets Norcalciphos the first few days after kidding.
     
  8. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Guest

    I checked her feet and legs, no swelling and pasterns are holding up well.

    She has been eating the minerals. She was at the mineral feeder tonight while the others ate the pellets.

    I offered her some grain (when the others weren’t looking) she just licked up a bit, not even ¼ cup. Poor girl, she is not happy :(

    I’ll talk to the vet tomorrow about the BoSe. Last time I asked him for it he said we weren’t in a deficient area and wouldn’t give it to me :twisted

    Thanks for the infor about Isis. What is Norcalciphos?

    Christy
     
  9. Nancy

    Nancy New Member

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    Try to give her a dose of the glycol. I friend of mine has an older doe that is not due until Feb. but she has also gone off feed. She has been giving the glycol once a day and she is eating again.
     
  10. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Giving propolyne glycol orally for any length of time is going to burn her espophogus which is going to make her want to eat less and not more. Heading down the PG route is a slippery slope. You nutradrench is all PG with just some vitamins and minerals added.

    Try everything you can to get her to eat, you want her energy coming from grain, not sugar unless it's the only thing you can do. You can eaisly continue with the calicum injected for weeks, but not energy. Vicki
     
  11. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    try some beetpulp also things green like a cedar tree branch , regular oatmeal, parsley alfalfa or bean sprouts.
     
  12. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    Norcalciphos is injectable calcium with other minerals.
     
  13. ellie

    ellie New Member

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    Remember with grain, that it is HIGH phos and virtually NO calcium so lots of grain can worsen a calcium deficiency. That's why they first go off grain, I think, with hypocalcemia...they 'get it' that grain might be worsening the calcium deficiency. High calcium alfalfa is always my first choice, no grass (it's also high Phos and low calcium.) Good luck!!!

    Ellie
     
  14. Ashley

    Ashley New Member

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    My understanding is that grass has more calcium that phos than calcium, just not a high amount of either, so it just can't make up for the excess phosphourus in grain.
     
  15. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Only legume hays, alfalfa and clover have more calcium, than phosphrous. Grass hays, cereal hays etc...are loaded with phosphrous.

    I agree with Ellie, does stop eating their grain when in hypocalcemia and milk fever because it makes them ill. I think the imbalance also kills rumen bacteria so the grain ferments and makes them feel bloaty.

    Increasing this does grain with more energy for the kids, while treating her for hypocalcemia may perk her back up, just hate to have to start the PG orally. Vicki
     
  16. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Guest

    She went off alfalfa pellets the first time right at 100 days and was not on grain yet. I was thinking she needed the energy, plus it was time, so I started adding grain. She ate it for awhile but then went off to the point that I started the injections.

    Today she is still not eating alfalfa pellets or grain. Nibbles grass hay and bark and is cudding. Went for a nice walk with her today but she didn't want any peanuts.

    I checked her teeth and jaw but there were no problems I could see. I was thinking that she may have went off feed for another reason???

    I think if she doesn't start eating soon I'll loose her and the kids :(

    I can order from Valley Vet or get Rx if you think of anything I might need for her. I'm out of Nutra Drench... I gave her some MAGIC.

    Christy
     
  17. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Christy IMO you don't want to keep up the nutra drence and high sugars either. cmpk / BComplex probios and anything green you can find. Might be a good idea to go get a bale of alfalfa if hay is all she is eating.
     
  18. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    You have to do everything you can to get her eating of course. Steal cud, kefir, probiotics, yeast. B vitamins daily, take her temp make sure it is not low or high in comparison to someone else on the farm.

    Without energy she will go into ketosis, without calcium she will go into hypocalcemia and not want to eat. Without eating and giving oral PG, she won't eat because without tubing it burns her throat, and sets up a really acid rumen. Magic with the oils in it will further smoother the rumen bacteria, I wish I could visit with the boer goat breeder who came up with this nonsense!

    Give as much as you can subq or IV...calcium (why I prefer the CMPK with it's other minerals) B vitmains, do her bo-se again...but got to get that rumen working so she will want grain again.

    Treat her for hypocalcemia right now, try not to think ketosis and the volumes of PG given with it unless she starts having fingernail polish breath. Getting her 50 more days into the pregnancy is going to be hard, honestly once you have ketones present in the breath you should abort her to save her, because the kids will likely be born dead anyway, along with a very ill goat. If there is a way of supplying energy to the blood system without oral PG go for it! Vicki
     
  19. KUrby

    KUrby New Member

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    gosh this all sounds really scarey! I hope you get her pulled thru Christy.
    Karen