Problem Goat

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by Dover Farms, Dec 4, 2008.

  1. Dover Farms

    Dover Farms New Member

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    Okay...I have a problem doe. She was in a pen with 3 other does...getting all the same stuff...like minerals(we are having some problems with the minerals and I'll get to that in a sec), ect. Though this particular doe doesn't seem to really care for the minerals. Our hay feeders suck(waiting on dad to build us the "V" shaped ones) and waste a lot of hay and we don't always get it cleaned out...so it makes a "hay mound". When it rains it gets all squishey...none of the other 3 have a problem with this, but my one doe breaks in her pasterns....rolls completely back on her hoof. This is very frustrating to me...because I don't know if it's our management or her or both! We moved her into the barn by herself...where it was dry. She got better, but as soon as some hay started to build up...she breaks again. I wondered if it wasn't how I trimmed her feet. The one pastern that she breaks on more has now started to round a bit in the heel...so I trimmed her yesterday. I was trying to make the bottom of her hoof as level as possible with the coronary band, but I could only trim so far before she started to bleed. Back to the hay feeders...they have been moved so that the girls aren't standing on hay mounds..and we are keeping it clean underneath the hay feeders and are working at the hay mounds. About the minerals...I don't know if the minerals we have are all that great. They are by MannaPro. We are looking to get a different mineral...either Cargil Right Now Onyx or Sweetlix Caprine Magnum-Milk(anyone know which is better?). However, we are having the hardest time finding either one in our area! The other problem we are having with minerals is....they(especially the kids) will NOT leave the feeders on the wall! They pulled an eye-bolt out of the wall...grr! This doe also has scabby stuff on her rear pasterns....I'm not exactly sure what it is. I put a spray(I can't remember what it is called) that has tea tree oil in it on the scabs for over a week. It seemed to get a little better, but then no more progress. Then within the past week...I noticed when milking she has little pimple like things on her udder. Can I not win with this goat?! I am very frustrated...and in need some advice. I just don't know if it's just our management...if so what needs to change other than the stuff we are currently working on changing. Or this particular goat herself, because no one else is have these problems. Or both. :help2*sighs*
     
  2. Ashley

    Ashley Active Member

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    Do you have an Orsheln's? They have a goat mineral that is their brand, Country Lane, it's not too bad. Higher on the salt than I want, but I can't find any mineral that is exactly what I want. The goats really seem to like it, smells nasty to me.

    I'll list the info here.

    Calcium min 8 max 9.5
    Phosphorus min 8
    Salt min 23 max 27
    Magnesium min 0.5
    Potassium min 0.5
    Iodine min 100 ppm
    Manganese min 750 ppm
    Cobalt min 40 ppm
    Copper min 1100ppm max1200ppm
    Selenium min 6.2 ppm
    Zinc min 4,400 ppm
    Vitamin A min 110,000 IU LB
    Vitamin D min 10,000 IU LB
    Vitamin E min 75 IU LB.

    Salt, Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Mica, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, Zinc Methionine Complex, Copper Lysine Complex, Manganese Methionone Complex, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Ferrous Carbonate, Copper Chloride, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Ethyienediamine Dihydride, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Selenium Yeast, Plant Protein Products, Processed Grain By-Products, Molasses Products.
     

  3. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    just go find a good dairy cattle loose mineral or a horse mineral and look at your copper levels and selenium get the highest you can and preferably with very little iron and no molasses

    Get this doe on BoSe shots or even horse selenium gel / copper bolus her and treat for a staph infection use the clordexiderm or what ever it is called to wash and treat the scabs etc NO greasy stuff or salve.
     
  4. Dover Farms

    Dover Farms New Member

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    Thanks for the replies.

    This doe just got a 5cc Bo-Se shot on 11/18. How much more do we give her? Also, we've never given a copper bolus before. You think the scabs are staph or the pimples?

    I also forgot. This is a yearling milker who is currently being milked once a day. She is bred and is due in March.
     
  5. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    [email protected] New Member

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    Scabby stuff around the heels reminds me of mange. I forget which kind, but both are treated with ivermectin. You might consider treating for that.
     
  6. Haglerfarm

    Haglerfarm New Member

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    Most likely the scabby stuff is staph. I have had best luck with sulfur and 30W oil. Just mix together and slather on. Works the best that I have found. Giving her a shot of Lysignin might help also. Anything you would use for staph would help. I never have found iodine to help though. When I have had problems is during wet winters when the ground stays wet. Not so much in the summer. The stuff on her udder is probably the same thing. I have heard of using burnt motor oil, but I figure it is the sulfur in it that works. That is why I made up the other. I now see farm stores carry something like that for horses. M-?-?
    Can't think of what the stuff is called right off hand. Three letters, I think with hyphens between.
    What does your yearling weigh? I think 5cc is enough for a 200 pound goat?
    You might get some Selenium-vit. E crumbles made for horses instead and add to her feed daily. Especially if she is not eating her minerals. The shot only stays in their system fairly short term.
    I have been using a good mineral and crumbles and a selenium gel closer to their due date with great success.
    Les
     
  7. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I have a girl friend in Ohio who gives Bo-se monthly to her problem children. She also has myriads of problems with her goats...feet, staph, lice. She won't bolus, although she overdoes Bo-se without blood testing :)

    I would bolus her for copper. The immediate reflief we got from all our wet weather, high humidity, pine mulched property, you name it I blamed it on it, poor feet. Down in the pastern shows up more on spongy ground, and bedded show rings, but it also highlights some really awful feet trimming also. Can you pop us a photo of her standing on solid ground? It's nearly always a cutting of too much heal (because they don't bleed as readily as the toe) and too long of toe. Leaving the heals to grow out (not do keep them cut from growing together too much and spalying the toe, but don't take off heel length.

    Folks who come from horse backgrounds, like me :) have such an advantage when it comes to hooves, and also conformation...since horses are nothing but feet and conformation :)

    Les I really wish that those using the gells or crumbles would do the leg work and blood test to see if the amounts you are using are really doing anything, or if its fluff. We know how to use bo-se from blood testings, we have no idea if oral even works, other than profilactic "my girls look great". Especially because your girls would likely look great without it ;0 Vicki
     
  8. Dover Farms

    Dover Farms New Member

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    Thanks...I really appreciate the help. It makes me feel like a bad owner sometimes because I don't know what to do, but I guess you live and learn. :sigh

    I would guess my yearling to weigh around 115-120lbs.

    We'll have to look into copper bolusing. We don't touch the heels on them any more...where I had her bleeding was the toe. It must be nice to come from a horse background...because I can see definitely the advantage. I can see about getting a pic tomorrow. My luck she won't be doing it tonight, because I just cleaned her pen this morning...
     
  9. Haglerfarm

    Haglerfarm New Member

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    I am from a horse back ground also. And I agree it helps.
    I do know I have a selenium deficiency problem here. When I first got goats I was having does have kids with contracted tendons and not clean off well or took forever to do so.
    After using Bo-Se things turned around. But, I hate giving shots if I don't have to. And I always get lumps with Bo-Se. Yes, I know they go away.
    I went a year without Bo-Se and had contracted tendons again.
    I keep the gel on hand during show season and if I have a kid getting spongy pasterns they get some. They are back in no time. Though generally I don't have much problem with it.
    Since finding a better mineral, and using the crumbles during breeding season I am getting strong kids with no contracted tendons and they clean off almost immediately. That shows me it is working.
    I bolused with copper for years, but I never found it to help in any way. I am not saying that it is not necessary, because I think it is. I just found it did not help much here. I do figure it is an absorption thing here as we are high in iron, in the water and in the ground in which our feed grown. I am working on that end of it.
    Les
     
  10. Dover Farms

    Dover Farms New Member

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    Sondra...is that stuff you are talking about blue? We have chlorhexidine(Nolvasan).

    She was walking just fine this morning, until she jumped up on the stand to be milked. She can make her pasterns break it seems....like when she puts her hind feet under her and pushes(like to jump up) they will break. Anyways, here is some pics

    Standing just fine:
    [​IMG]

    Right after jumping on the stand:
    [​IMG]

    Here is the stuff on her pasterns(it's the best I could get):
    [​IMG]

    How often do you give the copper bolus?
     
  11. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    You can tell from the rot photo that she has poor feet, see how her hooves go in towards each other. She is simply down in her pasterns and has poor conformation of the foot. No amount of hoof trimming can fix something like this although you can keep her up on her pasterns by trying to keep her feet short.

    If you haven't done some work on your mineral program it may be worth a shot.

    Have you see daughters or sisters of this doe? Do they share this pastern and feet problem?

    With the normal in Nubians being Very Good feet and legs, I would really think twice about keeping her kids on my farm. When your newer it's easier to keep up with does who as they age will become a maintenance nightmare, especially when it's wet outside, but the longer you are in goats the more of a pain this type of fault becomes. I am super picky about feet because of my plain ole laziness.

    Go to saanendoah.com and read, it has all the reasons why to bolus, what to buy and how to do it, you should have a good handle on this, you may want to do the herd.

    Remember that the amounts of selenium in our minerals is USDA levels for sheep and goats. So the amounts are minimal, to have minerals with more selenium you will have to use a horse crumble vitamin E with selenium...it would be worth a try unless the bloodline is knows for less than spectacular feet.

    Could you PM me her pedigree? Vicki
     
  12. Karen Bailey

    Karen Bailey New Member

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    How heritable is this (weak pasterns, poor foot conformation)? Would it be better to cull for this completely or could it be bred out within a generation or two if there were other traits that made it worth while to keep a doe like this? I had a buck that would throw awesome milk production, but his daughters pasterns would start to look like this around 4 years old. I have been eliminating them from my herd as they went down, mostly because it hurts me to look at broken pasterns, but could the line be salvaged, saving the milk production and improving the feet and legs?
     
  13. Dover Farms

    Dover Farms New Member

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    Which pic are you talking about Vicki? The one where she is breaking or the one she is standing up her pasterns? She had twin doe kids, but I am still trying to figure out what your are talking about with the poor comformation of the foot...so no help there. I'll PM you in a sec..
     
  14. Tim Pruitt

    Tim Pruitt New Member

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    Good feet and especially pasterns are definately something you want to breed for. Breed the doe to a buck that improves pasterns and cull the doe and keep her kid.
    Don't make the mistake of breeding for one thing though. Breed for the whole goat.
    In other words, don't breed for milk production alone. Think of the life of the goat and how many productive years it will have if it has good feet and pasterns. In its lifetime, a goat with good pasterns will have more years of production.
     
  15. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Look at the hoof rot photo, looks like rot or scald.

    See how she doesn't hold her hooves straight like this ll but like this () even if the feet are pared correctly she doesn't have the strength of foot to hold the hoof up and down, so she will always be walking on the outside of her hooves. In your doe it doesn't look like you are seeing to long of pasterns, but simply weak ones. Usually in Nubians the quest for longer and longer bone alos elongates the pastern to the point that the foot sits ahead of the hock and dewclaw, not a true break in the pastern but a bad anble to the foot. A back leg should line up, rump, hock, dewclaw with the heel up and down in straight line...same with the wither, the back of the knee the dewclaw and the heel, front feet can have a heel slightly forward and still be correct.

    This is the beginning of the strength of bone judges talk about. When you move your nubians away from the round bone they came from to the flat dairy bone we want, you have to take strength of bone with you...or you end up with shoulders that wing when the doe is 6, down in pasterns at 3. You can see some really awful front legs in my Birdy on my website. She was a FF at 11 months old, she should never have been bred that young with her strength of bone. She still got two milking legs, but it was ALOT of work showing her, with her head up and her front end up and over those toes!

    But Tim is right, it is a whole package you have to breed for, because in fixing your feet and strengthening your bones you do not want to loose your diary character. Vicki
     
  16. Tim Pruitt

    Tim Pruitt New Member

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    There is something about it when a goat gets on the milkstand. I don't know if it is the "uncertainty" of the moment or they feel unsafe but some will do this on the stand when they walk ok otherwise. Check the goat on "solid and secure" footing and if is walking ok on the ground, I wouldn't worry about it too much - especially if it is just on the stand that she does this.

    Another thing to be aware of is when a doe is about to kid, the ligaments of the body get loose for the birth. Not just those around the rump and vulva area but all over the goat - even the pasterns. A couple of weeks after kidding, everything goes back to normal.
     
  17. Dover Farms

    Dover Farms New Member

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    I wish she only did this on the stand, but she does it when she walks, too. Not all the time..but if the pen needs cleaned and the hay starts to build up just a bit...she breaks. :sigh We'll try giving her a copper bolus and get better minerals before we give up on her.