Possible non typical mastitis *update- test results*

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by homeacremom, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    This is the FF saanen doe I asked about earlier with a lumpy half of her udder. In general the "texture" of her udder is improving , the good half is perfect, but I still find a lime sized lump plus a few smaller ones that do not massage out of the other side. They are not right under the skin. Either they are within the milk ducts or nestled into the udder tissue because when she is full I can feel only the outer parts. Empty I can palpate all around them. I think all the lumps that originally would milk out no longer form between milkings. She has a small scar/imperfection on that side. It was not visible before she was bred and believe me, I checked her many times and even with a flashlight before I bought her. I noticed it maybe a month ago at hoof trimming as I was checking out her udder. It has gotten much larger as the udder stretches. There is a much smaller identical "scar" on the other side that is just now becoming visible. It looks like...sticking your finger in something soft- a sort of indention angled back and up towards the rear udder (where the lumps are) w/ a little bridge of skin across the top. These are totally flush w/ the udder except for the indention part which is very shallow. Could these scars have anything to do w/ the lumps. Keep in mind that a "scar" is appearing on the good side as well. Both "scars" are angled in such a way I do not think it possible that they could both be from one injury. I am no longer satisfied to think this might be just a rough, developing udder without ruling out other possibilities. It's feeling less and less like "brain matter".I am milking her last. I am using her milk for the kids, but it is getting pasteurized of course.

    She does not have a fever, the udder is not hot or hard, produces as much or more than the other side - getting about 4+ lbs of milk at 6 days fresh, no lumps, strings or blood, not overly sensitive. Other than the lump part she is a normal, healthy goat.
    I found a reference to all types of mastitis besides the common acute mastitis that can be easily treated. How do I go about running some tests on this? I do not have CMT tests yet. Will a regular testing of the milk pick up other non typical stuff or do I have to start from the beginning with a special type of test. I plan on talking to the vet I found the other week, but don't totally trust him to really know what he's doing with goats.
    I'll be glad to wait a few days if y'all are too busy to give a thorough answer immediately. ;)
     
  2. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis

    send some milk into LSU mastitis clinic and have it tested.
     

  3. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis

    You do know that does have belly button dimples that you can stick you finger in on the inside leg of their udder, normally? I was under the impression on your last thread that these brain type swellings of the milkviens were on both sides? Now that they are not and are on one side I would say she has staph cysts in them. And once again, because I talk to soo many folks, is this the doe that cultured staph? If not than send in a sample from both halves and have it cultured. It nearly always comes back as staph, which is totally treatable. Although once the body encapsulates it into a cyst, walls it off, it is much harder to get the meds into it to treat. I know a very nice lamancha of ours went into a herd when Joni sold out. She got these staph cysts and they were needle aspirated and although the milk sample at milkout was negative, the milk in the cysts were staph. She had an IV drug series done to the doe to get rid of these.

    I would culture the udder, keep her empty, boost her immunity, vaccinate with lysigin, include vitamin C, see if time will help this before I did anything invasive. It's about her udder for the long haul not her udder this week. And anything invasive would be much better for a dry doe, so using systemic drugs, infusions and then when you dry her at the end of her lactation, put in your course of action, this also gives you months to find out what you want to do. Then see how it worked when she freshens next year. Vicki
     
  4. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis

    Nope, didn't know anything about belly buttons on the udder :) These are on the outside of the udder. I'm embarrassed to admit I'm not sure what an inside leg of an udder is... Never seen them or heard of them before. Good, glad that is a possibility for the "scar" as I was afraid she'd never be showable now.
    No, she has never cultured staph. The whole udder WAS "brainy" but only one side had obvious lumps. I think I have heard you say before that a FF can freshen w/ staph mastitis. How does this happen and how can she develop cysts before she even freshens for the first time? Is staph terrible contagious if I observe hygienic milking routines?
     
  5. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis

    Virgin does catch this from raw milk, from being nursed by other kids when young, and by being milked when not in milk...anything that opens the orifice can let staph in.

    Part of the whole immune response issue, from being born into a herd that they recieve high quality colostrum from older does, to not being nutritionally stressed (no vitamin or mineral defficiency) keeps does from having issues with worms, cocci, mastitis, foot rot, lice, mites, ringworm...the list is huge. When a doe is stressed, even nutritionally, then things that in a normal doe would have been fluffed off become medical issues. And everyone of us, and goats also, deals with the same bacteria in them differently. Bet if you tested your whole herd you would find staph offenders in your own herd who are perfectly healthy....why then would she form cysts or others have lopsided udders? Immune health.

    I meant the udder hidden by the leg :) Vicki
     
  6. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis

    :biggrin :blush WELL....I'll be darned!!! I just learned something new! Hmpfh..imagine that. I have an obie doeling that's building an udder to freshen in April. Beautiful udder 'cept for these "folds" on the udder, beneath the leg...both sides! I found them because I felt her udder to see where the attachments were going to be...ARRRGGGHHH...what the "&**&^%^" is this?? There was ~now I know~ "navel lint" built up. Peeled it off and there's a indention there! Belly buttons?? Hmmmm. I'll quit worrying now...and you can have a good laugh on me, Vicki! :rofl
    Kaye
     
  7. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis

    :rofl :rofl
    Now I would have discribed it as stretch marks like I have all over my belly from having kids. :crazy
     
  8. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis

    So not all does have these? One of my two Alpine/Togg girls have faint "stretch" marks in that area
    and of course the Saanen's are just like a belly button! My dh is going to laugh when I tell him!!!!
     
  9. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis

    Only really good milkers with EXCELLENT udders have these!!!! :) LOL :) Vicki
     
  10. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis

    I sure hope so. I've got one- ONE- registered doe, this Saanen FF and guess what...she is only giving me 5 lbs. a day at a week fresh. :shocked Sure my "barnyard" does aren't quite as long, wide or attached as well but they did 8 lbs. within a week FF.
     
  11. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis

    Some just take longer to come into their own...but I know what you mean.
     
  12. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis *update*

    My samples are going out Monday... the breeder I bought from is having the same kid of lumps in her does and ran this through her vet's office. The results came back as positive for a staph and something else I didn't get over the phone. In the lab they went ahead and ran it through to see what would be effective treatment. The treatment recommended is 2.3cc Baytril per 100 1x a day for 7 days with 28 day milk withdrawal (ok for the kids though).
    Does this look right?
    Wondering about it being ok for the kids as it seems like it would have to come through the milk if it's going to treat the cysts. The info in 101 states concern over use in young animals - cartilage damage - and the kids I'd be feeding are keeper doelings...

    Note: Still want to send off samples before I start treating in case I have something different going on.
     
  13. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Re: Possible non typical mastitis *update*

    Find out what the something else is. Vicki
     
  14. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    OK, still don't know what in the breeder's goats besides a negative gram staph, a strep and ??
    I did get my results back from LSU. I sent in from both sides of the FF and from both sides of one of my others. All four samples were positive for coagulase negative staphylococccus, but only one side of the FF is lumpy.
    After I sent in samples I gave the problem doe another BoSe shot and vit. C and E. Been rubbing a garlic/coconut oil concoction on her lumpy side and tonight the lumps are definitely smaller. All the "brainy" feeling is gone from both sides and all that is left are the lumps. Any treatments to reccommend?
     
  15. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    Judith, dont meant to hijack the thread, and I'm sorry I dont have any words of wisdom on great treatments for this. But could you share how/where you sent a sample to get tested, and what to expect for cost and reply time, etc? I couldnt find anything in 101 when I looked and I'd like to test the doe that freshened with mastitis this year. She doesnt seem to have any more symptoms but I'd like to see if it cleared up or just went subclinical.
    BTW, i think a thread split off on the what where when how why and whos of mastitis testing would be a great addition to 101. heres one already there that helps explain it all, I couldnt find it.
     
  16. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    Thanks, Sondra! I'll copy down the number and try to call them tomorrow. If I get the info from them on how to sample, what to send it in, shipping info, cost etc, can I send that to you and we can add it to the thread in 101?
     
  17. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    yes that will be good Laura
     
  18. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    Judith, when they gave you the results, did they send back culture results? that should say what antibiotic is goig to be more likely effective.

    When they culture bacteria to determine what drugs its sensitive too, they incubate the actual organism, usually on plates, to get colonies of it growing. They put a neat disc similar ot blotter paper on top of the culture medium, that has holes in it. The area around each hole is impregnated with a particular antibiotic, so one disc might have about 8 holes and they can see on one plate what will work.

    The holes that grow great colonies- in spite of the antibiotic they are surrounded by- are resistant to that particular drug. When the drug stops or prevents a colony from growing around the hole it is considered an effective drug to use- or they say the strain is sensitive to it. they usually report that as a list of common antibiotics with a "S" for sensitive, or "R" for resistant, or an "I" for Indeterminate which means it stunted growth but there still was some.

    Usually takes about 48 to 72 hrs to get useful resuts from the time they start incubating. Human labs usually report the sensitivity results every 24 hrs for 2 days and then a final at 3 days. (Viral culturing is a lot different, but this is the usual way its done for aerobic (oxygen using) bacteria). I'd guess with the mastitis clinic if they do the C&S it would probably just be a final result.

    Its really a pretty simple procedure, used ot be one of the basic skills they teach in college micro classes. Having an incubator is the only really hard part of it, and I'm not sure what the temp is that they use, its been awhile since I did this in micro class- like decades! LOL The only other equipment you really need is the plates and a loop which would be available anywhere they sell microscope stuff. It think it would be neat to learn how to do at home, not much more difficult than doing fecals. Keeping everything sterile to avoid contamination is the trick. But if it can be done in a chicken egg incubator, it would be a cool project to play with! A filter disc could be cut out and impregnated with the antibiotics. Probably good for the simple stuff like minor skin infections you wouldnt bother sending off to a lab, anyway, though I wouldnt trust a home set up for the important stuff like mastitis, it might still be a neat skill to have to save time and wasted money using the wrong drugs on those things you treat without going to a vet.


    Well, I got curious enoughto cal and talk with the microbiology person at work. She raises cattle so knew exactly what I was talking about, and said she never thought of doing it at home, but was now probably going to! LOL She said you incubate at the normal body temp of the animal. I'd bet a cheap but sterilizable egg incubator could do double duty, and she agrees, with goat temps being about the same. She also said that our hospital does sell media (the culture plates) at cost, and do incubation as a community service, so that might be an option for some if their local hospital labs do it too. This might be a neat project. :)
     
  19. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    I was told to wipe the tops of the tubes and have everything as clean as possible. 1-2 ml frozen packed in a styrofoam box with plenty of cold packs and mailed overnight. It has to get there still cold. Mail no later than Wednesday with Monday being the best. I washed udders, my hands, etc with a fairly strong bleach wash; dried well threw away the first 4 squirts and then collected my samples. I sent in from two does sort of as a control. All four samples are the same? so I guess only the one side of the FF has lumps but all are positive for this CNS - coagualse negative staph. I guess this means I've probably got subclinical in all of them????

    No, they did not include sensitivities with the culture results. I've been having computer problems so am having to go somewhere else to get online. Collected the email last night...I will try to call tomorrow to ask if they even did sensitivities. Need to look up this CNS for more info. If I remember correctly the negative gram staph are harder to deal with.