Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage - AGAIN!

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by MF-Alpines, Oct 30, 2011.

  1. MF-Alpines

    MF-Alpines New Member

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    My 5 yo milking doe, unbred, 8 months into lacation, milking 1x/day was down. Able to get up, but muscles quivering, especially in the hind legs, but front as well. Temp is 100.8 compared to another two doe's who are at 101.9 - 102.1. Peeing, pooping, eating and drinking fine (was eating and drinking this morning - just was her pee and poop).

    I don't have real CMPK, but a substitute that the vet gave me: Cal-Phos #2 With Potassium by Phoenix Pharmaceutical, Inc. My syringe only goes to 12cc so I gave her two SQ shots of 12cc each. I came back in and did the math and the strength of it appears to be about 1/2 that of CMPK.

    Do I give her another 2 SQ shots? Wait and watch? When to give again and how much? Anything else?

    She gets COB ration w/Calf Manna for a total protein of about 17% at milking time. Almost free choice 2nd and 3rd cut alfalfa hay (nice hay) and of course free choice minerals and water.

    Thanks for the help.
     
  2. MF-Alpines

    MF-Alpines New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

    She has stopped shaking and is at the hay bin eating alfalfa.
     

  3. carlidoe

    carlidoe New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

    With the low temp it could be polio. Maybe give her some B complex and thiamin? I'm not sure what the protocol is exactly.
     
  4. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

    Cindy- it is a good idea to give the CMPK every 30 minutes until temp is normal.
    I doubt she would be eating if her temp was not normal since they cannot digest if the interior body temp allows die off in the rumen. Hope she continues to improve without further intervention but I would do the whole round of supportive care like b's and more calcium and track her milk totals and temp. It seems odd that a calcium drop would be the issue that late in lactation -this is normally a problem of late gestation and early lactation so keep a watch for additional symptoms. Have you recently brought in a new batch of feed?
    Lee
     
  5. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

    I sent a late lactation doe into hypocalcemia trying to get some weight on her before the fall show out here.....never again.

    Did you give her more grain than normal? 101 isn't really hypocalcemia range...did she milk normally? Does in hypocalcemia have little to no milk.

    It's time for everyone on the forum to reread the Sue Reith articles, if you can't get your vet to perscribe CMPK injectable, please purchase the Calcium Gluconate injectable from Jeffers. Vicki
     
  6. MF-Alpines

    MF-Alpines New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

    The doe is back to normal. Temp is normal.

    I never thought about measuring the milk quantity - I'll have to remember that for next time.

    The reason I think it was hypocalcaemia is because of the shaking and the lower temp. Maybe I caught it early? I checked the bottle of CMPK against the other prescriptions I found online and they have the same strength. The reason I was confused and thought it was about 1/2 the strength is because in one of Sue Reith's articles it states "you can re-create a 30 cc CMPK dose (650 mg calcium; 500mg potassium; 150 mg phosphorus; and 96 mg magnesium)". When I did the math, it didn't come out to these mg's. Maybe I'm confused (surprise!).

    For example: The bottle is 500 mL and has 10.8g Ca. Divide that by 30 and you get .36 g per 30mL dose. Multiply that by 1000 to convert to mg and you get 360. Do you see my confusion?
     
  7. Trysta

    Trysta New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

    Cindy,

    10.8 g Ca in 500 ml = 0.0216 g/ml so in a 30 ml dose you would be giving
    30 x 0.0216 = 0.648 g in total
     
  8. MF-Alpines

    MF-Alpines New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

     
  9. Trysta

    Trysta New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

    Math can take me down any day, too, but this time I saw the light
    :biggrin

    Hope your doe gets well, Cindy!
     
  10. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

    And.....rarely does oral dosing work....there is no CMPK alternative other than another injectable form of calcium. Glad she is on the mend. Fix the problem, is she getting enough readily absorbable calcium everyday....are you over acidifying her rumen with molasses or too much grain? With the change of all pelleted feeds this time of year from liquid molasses to dried, and the change in oils (they are able to use cheaper oils in the cold weather because they do not go rancid as fast as they would in the warm weather) just that alone, in a doe who gets most of her nutrition from grain instead of roughage, could bring any good milking into milk fever. Vicki
     
  11. MF-Alpines

    MF-Alpines New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

    Sorry, Vicki, I meant to address the grain ration earlier.

    No changes in feed and she is on whole grains + calf manna only. Not a new batch of grains nor a new bag of calf manna. She doesn't get much on the milk stand - most of her feed is alfalfa. So for the reason, I have no idea at this point. But from what I was seeing, it did appear to at least be the start of hypocalcaemia - the tremors and the lower temp. The injectable CMPK that I gave her really worked. I saw this same thing happen to this doe prior to parturition when I first got her - the symptoms were the same. That instance is actually how I found DGI. :)
     
  12. MF-Alpines

    MF-Alpines New Member

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    Re: Possible Hypocalcaemia & CMPK Dosage

    Here we go again. Same doe. Same thing.

    Temp is 100.6. Other goats are 102.x. Tremors. Tremors started yesterday. Temp taken a couple of hours ago. She gets milked once per day (evening). Tremors again tonight, but ate grain ration fine (COB mix plus Calf Manna and Beet Pulp for a roughly 16 - 17% ration). Was eating hay after she was let back out.

    The last go-round, the CMPK worked - no tremors and temp back to normal. I really don't want to wait for her temp to go lower and for her to go off feed before I do something. Or should I?

    What else could cause these symptoms? Like I said, last time, the CMPK, SQ, worked.
     
  13. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Yes of course start the subq CMPK.

    I would dry this doe up and see if she has anymore episodes. Are you the only one feeding this doe...are you sure she is not getting too much grain and not enough alfalfa? V
     
  14. MF-Alpines

    MF-Alpines New Member

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    Yes! She only gets milked once per day and I am at EVERY evening milking. My husband only milks on Saturday mornings and she doesn't get milked then. I would think "too much grain", too, if it could be in the morning because my husband is of the belief that "more is better". He's getting better, but he's not there yet. I digress.

    The alfalfa is 3rd cutting and beautiful. Cut and cured perfectly. It's the best we've ever had. Because she only gets milked once per day, she only gets grained once per day.

    I can dry her up. She will not be rebred as her pelvis is too narrow (figured that out after two kiddings), plus, she is CAE+ and I'm tired of worrying about kidding with CAE+ does. I was hoping to keep her milking as long as I could so that I'd have soap milk for the dry season (we've been freezing backups regularly). I will not sell her as I'm afraid someone else would breed her. She is asymptomatic with knees and udder, although she does have a "click" in her pasterns when she walks.
     
  15. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    This is classic for lactational acidosis.

    Our doe Tori had almost identical symptoms...except she couldn't get up at all. She was 8+ months into her lactation (7 years old) and went down so hard we had to pull her into the house on a sled (I so distinctly remember that it was January). Her temp was 99 degrees... ended up calling Sue Reith after someone on this board told me she was as good as dead. She advised me to continue with the CMPK (can you get some from your vet now?) and we also had to give her lactated ringers. We also gave Baking soda and the big turning point was when I transferred cud from a healthy goat to her...

    I am happy to report that not only did Tori completely recover 10 days later, (it took 4 days for the turn-around), but 1 week later she was giving 7.5 lbs/milk/day again.

    Don't milk her until she is recovered.

    CMPK every 4-6 hours (I gave every 4 hours during the day and every 6 hours at night).

    Baking soda drench every 4-6 hours (correspond with the CMPK).

    Acidosis also suggests Excenel/Naxcel once/day.

    Lactated ringers as required.

    This is not an expensive fix, but it isn't free. Your doe may not come back into milk once you are done, so only you can evaluate whether you want to put her down or go full throttle for treatment.

    PS Click in the pasterns is not necessarily due to CAE. so I would still call her asymptomatic.

    Sometimes, despite correct management, stuff happens, metabolically speaking. The fact that this doe bounced back after initial treatment would lead me to believe that your management is good - just this particular doe had something get tweaked....and you did not continue the treatment, so she relapsed.

    Continue the treatment and also treat for acidosis (if you read Goat Medicine by Smith/Sherman, you will see that the treatment for hypocalcemia and lactational acidosis is almost identical... just different causes).

    Please keep us updated.
     
  16. lonestrchic23

    lonestrchic23 New Member

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    Sorry for the thread drift, but what causes the "clicking" in the pasterns? Anything besides CAE? I'm assuming you're referring to a clicking sound when they walk? I have 2 does who do this, but I got low, negative titers through Biotracking this summer...

    Back to the original topic, I do hope you get this figured out soon, best of luck.
     
  17. fmg

    fmg New Member

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    Lots of goats click when they walk. Sit ringside at a show and listen during the silence as they are being walked around the ring. I think it might have to do with the bones rubbing together or maybe the ligaments popping as they move. That's just a guess though.

    Hopefully you can get her over this, since it does sound like it would be best if you could keep milking her. Wish she didn't have the pelvis thing and now this, because I need an asymptomatic CAE+ doe to live with mine...I'm tired of keeping her wether companion around for nothing.
     
  18. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Clicking is nearly always nutritional. Vicki
     
  19. MF-Alpines

    MF-Alpines New Member

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    Thanks, everyone. This time I will keep up on the CMPK shots. And yes, it is REAL CMPK. I was confused in my first posts.

    Can you elaborate on this? Let me know if you want me to start another thread.
     
  20. lonestrchic23

    lonestrchic23 New Member

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    Yes, I'm with Cindy & would like to know how nutrition causes or contributes to the clicking....... I'm not sure how I could tweak or improve my feeding plan any more but if they are missing something & that causes clicking, I'd like to fix it.