PLEASE HELP--Doeling drooling with head tilt.

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by peregrine, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    I am so sad. Please tell me what you think.

    I have 2 does with 2 doelings each. I also have 2 bucklings in a separate pen.

    All my animals are fine except one that showed up sick this morning. She is a doeling born Feb 25. She is 50 lbs and was healthy a couple days ago. I say "a couple days ago" because, although she looks really bad this morning, something in her disposition yesterday made me momentarily wonder about her. Basically yesterday morning she was a little late coming out of her sleeping quarters, when everyone else popped up bright and happy. But after that she just really looked like one of the herd yesterday, ate, drank, played like the rest of them.

    This morning she has a sliver of her tongue partly hanging out, drool dripping of her mouth, she holds her head low, and her ear tilted. She can walk a straight line, but is reluctant to lay down. I dont know if she can drink, she tries to eat, but can't. Last night when I fed everyone at 10:00 PM she seemed to eat. Although I didn't watch to find out, she was just right at the feeder acting all excited like the rest of them. Energetic and fighting her way to the trough as usual. She wasn't able to nurse her dam this morning.

    I have not taken her temp yet this morning, but I am pretty good about feeling for it. She doesnt feel hot. I will take it later. I have already done enough to bother her. I watched her pee, and although it was darkish, there was a lot of it. And her poop was totally normal.

    So, this morning I gave her Thiamine, Penicillin G, Bose, Vit B and Banamine.

    I also gave her a shot of Ivermectin, in case this is a brain parasite. We do have a lot of snails and deer around here. She is on daily medicated meat pellet feed and has been wormed with cydectin.

    Can you give me any help, advice or hope? She is such a sweet girl. Her sister is doing fine! So are the other babies. Now I worry about them. I also worry that if this is listeriosis, do I have to be concerned about the milk we drink raw? We have been drinking it for about 3 years with no problems....What is the next step here?

    Thank you so much for any help....
    Alisa~
     
  2. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    I have to say that my goats are on pasture, about 2.5 acres. They have been eating grass, browse and lespediza/timothy/orchardgrass hay. I seperate the doelings from the mamas at night and milk once a day in the morning. This doelings sister is a couple lbs heavier than her--about 55 lbs--and has milk goiter. She is a hoss and very healthy. Her mama is my oldest milking doe and very healthy too. All my goats are looking good and healthy! This is just confounding me....I am lost....
     

  3. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    Should I have given dexamethazone for brain swelling? I have it.
     
  4. KJFarm

    KJFarm Senior Member

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    If she is feeling OK, other than the drooling and head tilting, she possible just has facial nerve paralysis, from taking a blow to the head. Is an eyelid drooping? Ear drooping? Dexamethazone will help, and if she's just been hit in the head, she will probably make a full recovery, may take days or a few weeks. Do take her temp. - if she has a fever and is acting really ill, this could be Listeria. Watch her carefully and make sure she is drinking. You will notice that she will lose feed from the paralized side, and will lose cud also.
     
  5. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Agree with Janie, especially about taking the temp, it's really the most important thing for a diagnosis. Vicki
     
  6. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    She is drooling severely and her tongue is partly out. Yes her ear is drooping. No eyelids are droopy but her eyes seem "far away." She is definitely not feeling ok. She looks like she is on deaths door. She stands with her head low, doesnt want to lay down, wanders around but when feels threatened runs directly to her shelter and stands again, like she is ready to die, literally. She is very slow and would stand doing nothing if I didn't go in and bother her. She is interested in eating though, only she can't because of her tongue and drooling/paralysis. She was trying to eat hay, unsuccessfully. I held out two oak leaves for her, this actually caused her to slowly turn and just as slowly walk toward me to sniff it. With much difficulty and fatigue she was able to manuever the leaf into her mouth and tear a piece off. She then became resigned to not eating and went back into the darkness of her box.

    So we sit and wait.

    The Penicillin G I have is old. Its been refrigerated for the whole year (+) I have had it, but nevertheless, it is old. I also have Biomycin. I read in a Sue Reith article that I should give that. I don't know what to do.

    I feel so bad for her. I don't have anything to tube her with.

    I assume I should not put her with her mother, in case there was a way for her to possibly get some nutrition through nursing. I wonder if it would be better not to in case she does have listeria, I dont want her mama's milk to become contaminated....I dont know I dont know I dont know what to do.....
     
  7. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    I'll go take her temp now.
     
  8. KJFarm

    KJFarm Senior Member

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    Do you have Thiamine (B1), injectable? If not, do you have FORTIFIED B-Complex? Start her on one of them ASAP. Do take the temp.
     
  9. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    YEs her temp is elevated to 103.5. She is afraid of me now because I gave her so many shots. But when she apparently saw me with the red food bucket she walked over to me (slowly) to see what I had. I brought her some alfalfa pellets which she seemed happy about. But she cannot eat them easily, so I put some water on them to puff them up a bit so she can lap at them with her drooly tongue a little at least. I am also afraid she may choke on them since they are the large sized pellets (about an inch long). When you touch her eyes, she seems almost blind. Thats the far away look. When you touch her lids, they close very slowly, you can really touch the actual eyeball before she gets a chance to shut the lid. She is not quick and twitchy about anything. She's like molasses. But she must be able to see because she can see the oak leaves and the red bucket.....
     
  10. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    Yes I gave her the Thiamine.
     
  11. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    Goodness, is this going to effect my whole herd? Do I need to send a milk sample to LSU? Why is this affecting just one goat??? UGH!!!!
     
  12. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    I would say I havent fed too much pelleted feed at once. I go according to the directions on the bag. And there is no mold in the hay or feed.

    So everywhere I read about Listeriosis VS Polio -- the drooling is always in the LISTERIA symptoms and doesnt happen in the polio. Correct? If so, I am thinking Listo because he main symptom is drooling. In which case I am considering putting her down, considering the low survival rate. I feel like she is an infection reservoir for my other animals. Would I be wrong?
     
  13. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I would certainly have a vet see her before you opt to put her down. There isn't a goat on my place in this heat who wouldn't have 103 for a temp, make sure and take a penmates temp, listerosis temp would be in 105 or 106 and they are recumbant. Your vet can also tell you the dosage to give of Dex also using banamine if you have it to keep her temp down. All swelling of the brain disease (tetanus, menengial worm, listerosis, polio) cause neurological symptoms, but so can injury like Janie said. So can worms like tapes and even inner ear infections.

    I would guess she has listerosis except for the temp and that she is walking around albeit slowly, plus you gave banamine already so perhaps this is why she is only 103?? If she is not a valuable animal to your herd and you don't want to spend the money for a vet or drugs...and I am not a good nurse either, the idea of treating an animal in this heat, which for this doeling is going to be subq fluids and shots round the clock...than yes put her down. All the drooling and no being able to drink or eat you have to keep her hydrated. But nothing you have done is taking down the swelling in the brain, which has to be done now. Vicki
     
  14. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    I gave her 2.25 ml dex. I am going to give her IV fluids. I am also going to call my vet to find out what tissue samples need to be saved to determine a cause of this, to confirm or rule out Listeria. My does had abortions last year. We treated everyone with medicated feed and antibiotics. We have been drinking the milk, the goats poop in the yard on the way to the milkstand and my kids refuse to wear shoes, I milk in my laundry room, we were all there for the births, investigating placentas, hugging wet babies--you'd think one of my family would have gotten sick with Listeria by now! Not that I am mad about that, but it just confuses me! If this is listeria, I feel like I need to get out of goats. Is that crazy? Am I overreacting? I feel sure it is LIsteria, and I have jars and jars of milk in the fridge that I am now too scared to drink. Yes, this pisses me off. As you can see, I try to do stuff right, and I feel screwed right now. Sorry for the rant.
    And thank you for the help...
     
  15. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I just would freak out yet. Listerosis may fit some of the symptoms but this is not a normal disease process in a kid this age, this time of year, when you don't feed silage or the goats are not eating hay off the ground, paraistes, filth...wild animals also can bring it in on their poop....or one of your adult does can be a carrier, pooping listerosis contaminated poop around the yard. Pasteurise your milk to 165 until you get a confirmed diagnosis of this kid. The incubation period is 2 to 3 weeks (but usually in about 48 hours everyone who is going to become ill is ill).


    If this kid has listerosis than her dam likely does or someone in the pen, so run fecals on the group, find the doe...that is the animal I would destroy. The carrier aspect of the disease is the scarry one, she can pass this disease to the herd, to you, with not one symptom. Thankfully this is rare. And once again just so rare in kids!

    Are your adult does CAE negative?
    Do you see white tail deer, or is your hay harvest from area that have white tail deer?


    Vicki
     
  16. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    I really dont know where my hay comes from. I got it from a friend and the lespideza is local and yes deer around here are heavy. My does are CAE neg. My animals have hay put in a feeder but they do eat it off the ground when it falls. The lezpideza was a round bale that was set out for all the animals to eat. They ate it quickly once it was set out, within a week (2 horses, a donkey and 8 goats).

    Now I am really worried because I dont want to put anyone down, MOST ESPECIALLY the oldest doe I have. She is the dam of this one and also mother to another very healthy big doeling kid. Shes a great milker and my favorite girl.

    Both my does aborted 2 winters ago. I treated everyone for every possible zoonotic disease and assumed that would treat any carrier situation. Isn't that an option? My vet said that there isn't much to definintive diagnosis on listeria. He said we can keep and test her brain tissue to give a diagnosis on the sick doeling, but that this would not mean the dam was a carrier. He said that he wasn't sure we could tell if my doe (her dam) was a carrier or had it in her milk. He was going to look into it for me.

    I figured with this kind of prognosis on getting an actual dead on diagnosis that I would go ahead and treat everyone for listeria and consider them negative after treatment. Would this work?

    THANK YOU!
     
  17. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    What is the fecal test for listeria?....This freaking SUCKS.
     
  18. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    The fecal test for listeria is only effective in a actively ill animal. Otherwise it takes a spinal tap so you cannot blood test or fecal test unless they are actually currently sick. The problem with this is it takes a week for results and so is often too late to help you design a protocol. I would still test a fecal sample from the sick animal now just to rule it out so you can quit freaking out about your other goats and go back to using the milk. It is killed at 165 degrees. It is actually quite ubiquitous and isolated from many species of animals that can transmit it so it need not be that your other goats are the source. It can however be plated out from milk samples so ask your vet to find a lab that will do this if you feel like you need to test the dam.
     
  19. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    I do feel like I need to test her dam. And I will collect a fecal on the currently sick doeling. I dont expect her to survive, but I wont feel comfortable with this situation until I know the reason. I can live with a fluke, with a wild bird feces being accidentally eaten, etc. I cannot deal with my milkers being carriers of this and having my children or myself/husband drinking infected milk. Although we have been for the past 3 years so really, wth, right? We have hugged new wet babies on kidding days, run around the yard in bare feet in goat feces which is sprinkled around the yard, etc etc etc. We arent dead yet. Still, knowing the possibilities on this disease and seeing it in action is plenty to give you inspiration to take it mighty seriously. Hopefully we dont have it here at all. But I have to know what it is, or at least what it ISNT, so I can go on milking and drinking like we do now. RAW. If we cant drink it raw, I just wont have goats. If I wanted pastuerized dead milk I would go buy cows milk from the grocery store.

    UPDATE: Her temp is 106.5. DH and I gave her 750 mls lactated ringers SQ. I gave her another afternoon dose of thiamine, biomycin, penicillin G and a half cc banamine.

    Her condition hasnt improved one bit since her morning treatments. She has gotten worse. SHe wishes she could eat. I know she's hungry and it breaks my heart. SHe goes to her dish and wants to eat but her mouth wont work for her. She cant even open it. I cant tube her, I dont have a tube that will work. I wanted to put her down tonight because I cant stand animals suffering. DH said we should wait til morning after the fluids and if she doesnt improve he will do it tomorrow. After which I will collect a fecal sample and as much of her brain as I can fit in a jar.....

    This part of goat ownership? NOT FUN *AT ALL****
     
  20. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    Half of that 750 was IV