Pedigree & buck selection advice (Toggs)

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by Secondairy, Nov 7, 2008.

  1. Secondairy

    Secondairy Member

    157
    0
    16
    I have two intact bucks here, as well as full accesses to a friends buck. One of my bucks is not registered (1 generation shy), but that is not of utmost importance to me, as I really like the buck's temperament and general conformation. He is level and wide throughout, with excellent rumen development, but short on stature. My young AM registered buckling has the dairy character, VERY long bone pattern, and already taller than the older buck, but he is narrower overall (also still being a kid may have something to do with that.) Young buck has been interested in does, but I don't think he is mentally ready for them. The friends buck is clean (Neg CAE/CL), and he has never been used for outside breeding other than what his owner for the last 2 years has been using him on her own herd. He is also shorter in stature, but extremely massive and wide. I don't like his feet and legs, but he is an older buck, and may have bee better when he was younger in that department. Plus on the friends buck is that he is PB. Kids from this buck are vast improvement in both feet and legs, as well as stature.

    Pedigrees for them are listed below:

    Unregistered buck
    Dam: http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=T001344391
    Sire: http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=T001408714

    AM Reg buck
    http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=T001456079

    Friend's buck
    http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=T001285464


    Our does are all pretty closely related in pairs. We have a pair of dry yearling's that are litter mates. Two dry yearling's that are sharing a sire -also from the same breeder as the AM buck, and a GE doeling (Dam was unregistered Alpine x Nubian).

    Whiskey
    http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=T001404218

    Whistle
    http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=T001404217

    Bella
    http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=T001454349

    Bobbi
    http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=T001456746

    Tink
    http://www.adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=E001454352

    My plans were to breed Bobbi and Bella to the unregistered buck for grade kids, and to see what he can produce as those does come from good strong lineage, Whiskey and Whistle to the AM buck as they can use a longer bone pattern, and the experimental doeling to the PB buck at my friends place to get her kids AM status and she and her wether brother have the best feet and legs of the whole herd, as well as very nice conformation.

    I don't really know too much about breeders further within pedigrees, or possible well known ancestors and how they tend to produce, so I am looking for recommendations or comments is anyone sees something in their pedigrees that may please or surprise me, good or bad.

    Thanks for looking and sharing your knowledge with me :)

    Kelly :)
     
  2. ecftoggs

    ecftoggs New Member

    224
    0
    0
    Kelly,
    You are giving us a heart attack here. We looked at your website trying to piece this together. The unregistered buck is Benjiman Moore correct?
    First off some advice we like to follow: Like father like daughter and like mother like son. Meaning traits pass down from sire to daughter and dam to son. What is it in the dam of the RG buckling you like? You talk all about him and nothing of his mother who is a RG. The problems I see is that his sister has color issues with the cream markings, this will not easily go away. Even though his are white odds are that he will pass some down to his offspring.
    Second you have some nice genetics to start a registered herd of Toggs with. Why would you water them down on a buck out of an unproven dam. He would have been meat at our house. A wise togg breeder once told me and I hold this true;" Not every doe should you keep a buck out of". Only keep them out of your best does!!
    So in my mind it leaves the Am buckling and the Pb buck. You are right in trying to pick traits you want improved and matching to the sire. We over do this, this past year we used 10 different bucks (which includes AI) on our does, and we still feel we could not match some does correctly. I would look at splitting Whiskey and Whistle to the different bucks and seeing what the daughters look like, since they are related closely you can pick up what each buck is passing along on limited doelings.
    I don't care much about Am or Pb, though we try to use PB when the buck is a good match, that is our opinion. We did use Maestro's Monte in '05 on one doe and the mating only produced a single buck. Don't remember exactly why but the guy became a wether. Anyway I would split the rest of the does between the two and see what you like.
    If you would really like to use Ben, use him on Tink. You are not losing much by the way of registered offspring and you can see if his structural traits hold true.
    By the way if your young Am. buck shows interest he IS mentally prepared to do the deed!!
    Tim
     

  3. Secondairy

    Secondairy Member

    157
    0
    16
    I am sorry about my website - it is out of date, and I haven't had time to update some information. Ben's mother was very nice. 75% Togg doe, I liked her more than Jules's dam. Jules dam was Ben's grand dam (I know the website says sister, but thats a typo, sorry :( ). Ben's dam had the better udder, and better feet and legs. I liked the curvature of her hind legs, straight fronts and she had nice tight toes. She had a nice uphill topline, and was level rumped. Sature was her only issue, she was a little short. She had the wider escution, and her udder attachments were better, as well as showing better thirds when viewed in profile. Definite improvement over Jules dam. I could see improvement with this small herd, which was something I liked. We lost Jules when she bloated after getting into some rained on and fermented rabbit feed that we thought was buttoned down pretty good before hauling it to compost - but not good enough. I was unable to get a picture of Ben's mother when we were there - I left my camera at home *DUH!* These were goats owned by a 4H family, producing family milkers.

    I am planning on wethering Ben this spring, and am not going to sell him He is a favorite here. He really is pretty nice but I need to get some pics of him that are not candids. I still consider myself new to goats after having them for 4 years, and I am completely naive when it comes to showing. I do the judging goats thing every issue of DG journal, and I am usually pretty close on my placements. I usually get general character down pretty good, but some of the other things like body capacity I am a little off on. I get them always in the correct order, just I don't always know what to call the faults that I see in lower placing animals. The one issue not too long ago was hard for me with the Nubians - all 4 of them looked pretty danged good!

    The market here for registered kids is not all that great - no one wants to pay much, and I am doing them solely as a hobby, and the fact that I like the goats, and the Toggs as a breed. If I could get in the show circuit, I may be able to expand my market,but this year I want to just freshen these does for home milk, and raise a beef calf for the family. Next fall I would like to do the more serious breeding, and may consider getting another registered buck and play geneticist.

    You did offer me a lot of information though Tim, and I thank you for that. Glad to know that my does have decent lineage behind them, and your input is valuable to me. I may go ahead and lute Whiskey and Whistle and breed them to the two registered bucks and see how they produce come spring :)

    Thank you again,

    Kelly :)