Ok now I'm worried... *Update: vet report*

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by CarlinsDarlin, May 13, 2008.

  1. CarlinsDarlin

    CarlinsDarlin Guest

    151
    0
    0
    Cinnamon kidded yesterday with triplets. She's a 3rd freshener. It was a relatively normal delivery. I didn't have to go in past my fingertips - just did that to make sure the first one was positioned correctly. She passed the placenta about 3 hours after kidding. I know after kidding she's going to feel lousy for a while, but she's worrying me. For the last couple days before she kidded, she didn't hardly touch her alfalfa pellets. She ate her grain fine, but no alfalfa (or very little). Last night after she delivered, she didn't touch her grain. This morning either. Normally, she gets/eats about 3 lbs of alfalfa a day, plus her grain (which I have gradually brought up to one pound twice a day since yesterday).

    She's not letting the babies nurse. She was attentive to them yesterday but today she doesn't even notice when they cry. One is screaming it's little head off. The other two are sleeping. They all got a drink of colostrum last night - not a lot, but some. I directed them to the teat and she did let them suck some. I also milked out about 20 ounces of the colostrum and tried to bottle feed them but they would have none of it. This morning she's not letting them nurse. I thought maybe her udder was too full and hurting her, so I put her on the stand (with considerable effort - she seems kind of weak) and milked her out. I didn't completely strip her, and I didn't massage her udder, but she only had about another 20 oz of milk this morning. I don't know how long it will take her to come into full production, but that seems like a little bit for a doe who produces a gallon a day when she's going good. I got another (different) nipple and was able to get the babies to take about 3 oz. each this morning.

    I took her temp a few minutes ago, and it's 101.5. She's been wormed, given probios, and B-complex. Is this normal post-kidding bad feeling? or should I be worried?
    Kathy
     
  2. tmfinley

    tmfinley Member

    840
    0
    16
    Re: Should I be worried? (post-kidding question)

    Maybe hypocalcemia?? I really have no idea what I'm talking about, but I think I remember that low temp can mean she needs calcium and after triplets and her being so weak, I would definitely try some CMPK. Also some BOSE probably wouldn't hurt.

    Hope someone with more knowledge can help you soon.

    Tiffany
     

  3. CarlinsDarlin

    CarlinsDarlin Guest

    151
    0
    0
    Re: Should I be worried? (post-kidding question)

    Tiffany,
    I don't have injectable CMPK or BoSe (don't have a vet yet), but I do have some CMPK drench. The directions on the bottle say for goats, "administer 1-2 oz orally depending on the body weight... or as directed by your vet." I was worried about Hypocalcemia, but 101.5 temp is pretty normal, isn't it? The weakness and her milk production worries me too, but I don't know how fast she'll come into milk - though she's a 3rd Freshener, this is the first time she's kidded here....
    Kathy
     
  4. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    9,442
    1
    0
    Re: Should I be worried? (post-kidding question)

    Yes give her the drench now and watch her temp close would give the drench until she is back to eating normal. also B Complex
     
  5. CarlinsDarlin

    CarlinsDarlin Guest

    151
    0
    0
    Re: Should I be worried? (post-kidding question)

    Sondra,
    Okay, I'll head out with it now. How often do I give it to her? She had B-complex this morning. When should I give her more?
    Kathy
     
  6. CarlinsDarlin

    CarlinsDarlin Guest

    151
    0
    0
    Re: Should I be worried? (post-kidding question)

    Just gave her 1 oz of the drench. You'd have thought I was trying to poison her. She definitely did NOT like it. It took about 3 tries to get it all down her. I was going slow because I didn't want her to aspirate it, but that just prolonged her agony. She does NOT like the taste. I also put out some baking soda for her, but she just sniffed it and turned away. I am so worried :(
     
  7. Shykid Acres

    Shykid Acres Guest

    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    If it is hypocalcemia, the cmpk drench should help.
     
  8. susie

    susie New Member

    279
    0
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    Is she just standing lying there like she's in a daze?
    If so it would seem like hypocalcemia . What's her temp now? That temp is low for my goats- they are always 102-103
    Do you have a Vet nearby that might have the cmpk injectable? Large animal or dairy vet? or even a dairy farm that might have some? Any other goat people around your area?
    I would give her more of the drench and see- but I don't know if it's sufficient to pull them out of hypocalcemia- i've only used the injectable. There might be others here that have more experience with the drench.
    Keep us posted--



    Susie
     
  9. stacy adams

    stacy adams New Member

    993
    0
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    It's not the taste of the drench, some calcium drenches are designed for cows, even though it says goats on the label and it burns the throat.. something about getting into the proper stomach (?) Ask me how I know.. :really
     
  10. susie

    susie New Member

    279
    0
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    The injectable burns too-- they are calcium salts i think. They will NOT like it-- but warm it up to bedy temp first and inject slowly-- they will only act like you're killing them.


    Susie
     
  11. CarlinsDarlin

    CarlinsDarlin Guest

    151
    0
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    Susie,
    Well, I don't know if it's a "daze" or not, but she's certainly standing around acting like she feels lousy. She's also grinding her teeth and I haven't seen her bring up her cud this morning. :(

    I have a call into one of the vets in the area who deals with goats. I told the secretary about the problem and she's going to have him call me back - he's in surgery right now. I did some name dropping, hoping that would help - told him I called based on the recommendation of another person who I know has used him for years. She actually didn't mention calling him for this particular problem (she's not aware of it) but she has recommended I call him before, so hopefully that will help. I asked if it was possible to get injectable CMPK. If so I'll ask him for BoSe as well. I don't know if he'll help or not since I'm not a current client.

    There are other goat people around here, but I have no idea what they have for meds. I know when I went to the feed store and bought the drench, the lady there said that it was what several people we know use...

    It makes sense about it burning. I didn't know that the liquid would do that - I actually bought it rather than the paste because I had heard the paste would burn. I feel so bad for her.

    Okay, so until I find out about the injectable (or if I can't get it), how often should she be drenched? How often should she get B-Complex & ProBios? And how much should the babies be drinking now? I guess I'll have to bottle feed them from another doe's milk? The only other doe I have that I can milk right now is about 4 months fresh - will that be okay for these newborns? They've had some colostrum, but I know the colostrum will stay in Cinnamon's milk for a week or so. Will they be okay with the other milk?
    Kathy
     
  12. susie

    susie New Member

    279
    0
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    I read that you should give 1 ounce every 2 hours but I don't have any experience with the drench. I found that here

    http://hometown.aol.com/goatlist/hypocal.htm


    not endorsing the article, because I didn't read it all just so you know where I got that info.

    I think you're ok with the probios and b vitamins-- honestly if she's hypocalcemia that needs to be addressed before all other concerns.

    Babies should be fine with other does milk I don't routinely bottle-feed so don't know the amounts-- should be in goats 101 under care of kids.
    I would call Call the Vet's office back and see if they are available, I'm usually a pain, but hey, squeaky wheel... it's important.

    Susie
     
  13. CarlinsDarlin

    CarlinsDarlin Guest

    151
    0
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    I finally got through to the vet ( I *did* call back ) and basically they were no help at all. Won't offer any advice or give any prescriptions if they don't see her. So I said fine, I'll bring her in. They said he's in surgery all day today and the earliest he can see her is tomorrow. (Which is just lovely because it's supposed to be raining cats and dogs and the only way I have of transporting her is in the goat crate in the back of my truck - covered with a tarp, I guess.) So I told them to pencil me in. If she's not 100% better by tomorrow morning, I'll take her in.

    I just got back from the barn, and she's letting (or did let, while I was there) the babies nurse. Which may indicate she's feeling some better. She's still standing, not down. Still grinding her teeth, though. I'll make a bottle for the babies this afternoon, though, just in case they haven't gotten enough. They don't like bottles, but if they're hungry, they'll eat. They did this morning.

    I hate the thought of giving that drench to her every two hours - you should have seen her reaction. I know it hurt her :( Ok, thanks for the advice, Susie. I'll read the article. She had some at 11:00 and it's 2:00 now, so she needs another one already, if that's the case.

    If anybody has any other advice, or additions to what Susie has given me, I would really appreciate it.
    Kathy
     
  14. susie

    susie New Member

    279
    0
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    Glad to hear that you got an apointment-- even if it is tomorrow :( Hopefully she'll be much improved.

    I'm no expert so yeah if anyone cares to correct me or chime in feel free!

    Kathy you can also PM Kaye or Vicki-- they are so knowledageable and helpful.

    Susie
     
  15. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

    1,289
    1
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    Kathy,

    we never give CMPK drench or MFO (almost the same stuff) to a goat straight. We mix it with some gatorade, add some molasses, something to lessen the burn and make it more palatable to the goat. She probably needs the energy, so Nutridrench would be a good idea mixed in too.

    Since she seemed to feel better after the first drench, I would assume that was the problem which means definitely every two hours until she is better. You and she may hate it, but it is do or die, literally.

    Camille
     
  16. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    All this info is already in Sue's articles in goatkeeping 101 when you can't get ahold of someone always start there.

    Banamine. The most underused drug around and the most usefull. It takes the edge off a doe who is feeling poorly after delivery, think of it as a little demerol, that also keeps fevers down and calms guts spastic from diarrhea.

    None of my goats wolf their food down after kidding. They usually leave their morning grain, kid in the late afternoon and then pick at their grain on the milkstand the next morning. I haven't dam raised in so long I have no idea how they do about their kids, but most of my does in the right after kidding milking in the barn and then the next two milkings on the milkstand milk 1 gallon of colostrum, not alot of milk for 3 milkings, certainly not what they milk normally, so yes it is down. They also don't go running around kicking up their heels either so the punky way your doe is acting is pretty normal. Now mine do have their heads in the hay feeder and eat their alfalfa pellets.

    I would expect a lower temp than what you are seeing if she is now in milk fever.

    Hypocalcemia is the termonology for low calcium pre kidding, milk fever afterward when you read the articles.

    Keeping CMPK injectable around and Banamine is part of your goat med kit, pretty much a necessity, and most of the time they go unused. Vicki
     
  17. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    9,442
    1
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    mix the drench you have with some snow cone syrup or koolaid or gatorade /grape juice or something sweet and deluting it. NOW if it is CMPK drench lable brand I have never had a problem with it burning thier troats but other brands and gel do burn.
     
  18. CarlinsDarlin

    CarlinsDarlin Guest

    151
    0
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    Okay, so Vicki, do you recommend I continue the CMPK until she sees the vet tomorrow? or just keep an eye on her temp? If it stays where it is (I've checked three times today and it's always 101.5) should I just assume she's feeling bad due to kidding and then just have the vet check her over tomorrow?

    If I need to continue it, I will mix it with gatorade and molasses as you said, Camille & Sondra. Anything has to be better than she's acting now. And it is Durvet CMPK D3 Drench.

    I'm glad to know that her colostrum amount wasn't too bad. She's not eating anything though, no hay, no pellets, no nothing. I haven't even seen her drink much. I've checked to make sure she's not dehydrating (pinch test) and so far she's okay - so she may be drinking when I'm not looking.

    When I see the vet tomorrow, I'll ask about banamine, BoSe, and CMPK. Is there anything else I should have on hand that you can think of that's Rx only? Thanks,
    Kathy
     
  19. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    9,442
    1
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    you might see if he has lactated ringers for you just in case tho you can order these on line right now if she isn't drinking you might have to resort to that also
     
  20. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    Re: Ok now I'm worried... (post-kidding question)

    If this was going to be a uterine infection her fever should be going up. If this was milk fever than her temp should be going down. She would also be wobbly and physically unable, not unwilling to get up onto the milkstand and stay there without swaying.

    Is she cudding? Chewing her cud?

    What you are doing with the oral CMPK isn't hurting anything just not sure how much it is helping and without tubing it's alot of anything to really get down with just her swollowing.

    Offer her warm nearly hot water.

    Perhaps some Thiamin...and don't go getting full bottles of the Banamine or Bose or say Nuflor or get naxcel undiluted.

    Did she pass her placentas with no problem? Did you do a uterine check afterward to make sure she emptied her uterus? Vicki