multi min & copper bolus

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by dm9960, Oct 7, 2011.

  1. dm9960

    dm9960 New Member

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    I gave my goats multi min 90 a couple months ago, my neighbor said not to do the copper bolus since there is copper in the multi min. But everyone looks like they need a good bolus. Is it safe to give a copper bolus or should I wait? maybe a smaller dose?
    thanks
     
  2. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Back in the 90's every single problem with goats was blamed on selenium, I should have purchased stock in the company that puts out Bo-se! The very same thing is happening today with copper...it really does become, give someone a little bit of information and it is parroted to others in such crazy ways, that the information becomes dangerous.

    You have to KNOW why you have chosen the management you have, you have to accept responsiblity for the management you choose. You are giving the multi-min as your copper and selenium...why would you now bolus also, when you don't even know if you are copper defficent to begin with?

    I am not talking to you directly........ we have gals on this forum who after obviously not reading the basic studies done by Joyce for the saanendoah, we have the info up on here for everyone to read, done on goats for copper, they then decide to give goats whole boluses, to bolus every 2 or 3 months when it is clear that the bolus is in the stomach chambers for at least 6 months.

    Sorry but I was never distrubited those xray glasses some seem to have....I can't see a little rough coat and immediatly know it is copper...how do you know it isn't zinc, how do you know it isn't bloodline and they carry more hair at flank, how do you know the skin problems aren't your low level of fat most goat feeds contain?

    I am super happy with the injectable multimin for my bucks and doelings, we know it lasts 21 days in a cows system so I am giving the injections every first of the month, I would so much rather give and injection than bolus my bucks. Yes I bolus my adult does, but with the new info I put up in the copper section on top dressing, I am doing that now. I have a liver biopsy back from this month and even at 10 her copper, being topdressed this year and last fall was just over the high number, which is exactly what I am looking for....But we have high iron here, is it the copper number you should be looking for? Maybe not, iron binds the copper so more needs to be in the system, I can not get my iron out of my management because my girls live on an iorn oxide hill, everything is red, including the roads.

    When you buy drugs, write down what you are buying them for, copy out and put into your goat binder what information you read that helped you make this decision. Know your management and why you are doing the things you are doing. And read saanendoah's information on copper, we have lost a lot of the links, sadly.

    So....why do they look like they need copper? Have you ran a fecal? Go to goatkeeping 101 and look at the Famacha chart and are they anemic at all? What is the total fat in their diet? Are they getting calcium daily? What mineral mix are you using? Vicki
     

  3. dm9960

    dm9960 New Member

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    thank you for your reply Vicky. I am so glad I posted this question. I have a lot of homework to do. I will be checking things and will post as I get info
     
  4. Ashley

    Ashley New Member

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    But Vicki, Dawn says she gave the multimin 2 months ago. Shouldn't that be out of the system by now?
     
  5. swgoats

    swgoats New Member

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    I have noticed that the winter coats my goats grow are different colored. The black ones grow longer reddish brown hair sometimes. Red ones may grow black overcoat. You do have to know what normal is. It can freak you out at first when your black goat turns red. It really helps to have photos of parents too. I kept scrutinizing this one goat wondering why he was getting redder and redder, and then I noticed in a photo of mom that she had a red overcoat in the winter.
     
  6. dm9960

    dm9960 New Member

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    Angie, I hadn't thought of that, time to look at pictures. How often should i do the multimin? I have high iron here in the water. There eyelids are pink. Last year I had a nubian doe that had a rough coat, hair in all directions, etc. I gave her a bolus and she showed improvement. Then I read about multimin, thought I would try that, so did so a couple months ago. Should I do multimin every month or bolus, or both. I feed them Noble Goat, been giving them beet pulp, but some won't eat the beet pulp. My husband got whole oats a couple days ago to add to the Noble Goat. oh and coastal grass ha.
     
  7. dm9960

    dm9960 New Member

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    I'm getting conflicting opinions on this. One opinion is that multimin should be given every 2-3 months, another opinion is that it should be given once every 6 months, both with free choice loose minerals. I'm getting very confused
     
  8. linuxboy

    linuxboy New Member

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    There is no single right answer. Re-read what Vicki posted above. It depends on your area, on the genetics of your herd, on your management, on the quality of your feed, your supplements, your mineral schedule, on the weather (not kidding), etc. The only really reliable way is to talk to people in your area who are using fact-based approaches... people who do post-mortems, who test, who have real data to back up some practices. Or, use solid anecdotal examples and go from there to see if it works.

    If your goats are healthy, you're doing fine. If you're having issues, investigate. From a best practices perspective, there's no reason to add all sorts of fancy stuff if what you are doing works, resulting in does who live for a long time with good health, and minimal kidding problems.
     
  9. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    I use them in conjunction. The effects of mineral max are transient and I use that tool more as a trouble shooter in stress situations or for animals from lines that are more needy. I still bolus because it gives long lasting results and keeps everyone on an even keel as far as looking like waxed glass!

    Get the bottle and look at the label. Copper is minimal in this mix. The MAIN benefit of this injection is the huge supplement of zinc which is a much underused nutritional tool with ruminants. Manganese is also underrated as therapeutic in goats because once again all the research has been done with cattle. I also do not let the selenium levels in this mix derail my Bo-Se supplementation. It is a minor dose- just as I consider it a minor dose of copper because it is in the carbonate form and it is not going via digestion. They are not really comparable as a management tools.

    Dawn....mineral max is generally put to use in the system within 21 days whereas the bolus is longer lasting and can contribute to liver stores to be called upon when daily dietary sources are lacking.
    ANY hair color changes seasonally are nutritional. A goat is an established color once it is mature and if it is not that color with a soft silky coat that lays in uniform direction- meaning following the contours of the body and not doing spirals and waves and sculptures on the sides then they need more copper. If you see this generationally you are not seeing something that is normal to that line- you are seeing the genetic predisposition to needing more copper to maintain coat color and or the tendency towards processing dietary copper poorly.

    I would like to ask that you please do not depend on the famacha chart for anything. It only tells you that you have neglected an animal beyond the timeframe that will ever allow it to reach genetic potential. Keep on a schedule with management - goats thrive on consistency. Waiting until they are anemic to do something about whatever is causing that is for 3rd world countries that are so poor they have no choice to but to manage this way.

    Lee

    MIN Max

    Zinc, not less than 20 mg/ml

    Manganese, not less than 20 mg/ml

    Selenium, not less than 5 mg/ml

    Copper, not less than 10 mg/m
     
  10. MF-Alpines

    MF-Alpines New Member

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    I'm really starting to get it. Thanks, Lee. :handclap
     
  11. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    Writing up more on zinc...will post on my mineral mix topic.
     
  12. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    One time frame that requires more zinc supplementation and finds me reaching for the mineral max is kidding.
    Colostrum is very rich in zinc contributing to building a vital immune function in the newborn. So a doe will be using more zinc during kidding and coming into milk ( colostrum ) than at any other time and potentially leaving her clinically deficient before her job is done. If you cannot ascertain that they are efficiently converting dietary zinc then supplementing is valuable. Skin and hair are primary indicators of successful usage of dietary zinc. Vital appetite is also connected to zinc levels and more about that later in another topic.

    Calcium represented in our management by alfalfa can block dietary zinc absorption so altho we want our does to be presented with adequate calcium for growth of the fetus and production of milk it can cause issues that can only be surmounted by a non dietary source of zinc. Etc....

    More later :biggrin
     
  13. swgoats

    swgoats New Member

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    I guess I should clarify. I have many tricolored and roaned animals with ND blood in them. What I have observed is that normally present hairs grow longer in winter, so a red roan may appear lighter, a red patch may take on a darker appearance. In the spring those longer hairs shed. I do not consider this a color change. The colors are just the same hairs in the mix that were shorter; they just grow longer and alter the appearance.

    If curls are soft, silky, and shiny, you still consider them copper related Lee? I've one doe who on copper turned so black she is nearly blue, but her hair has only gotten curlier! - it is super silky though... Have not yet explored zinc...

    Is hair analysis an option for diagnosing deficiencies?
     
  14. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    I did not mean curls Angie.
    Curls are part of the S pattern of the individual hair.
    I was referring to and it is hard to describe but all have seen it- the way a short coated goat will look like someone has taken their hand and rubbed the hair against the root direction making ridges and swirls and patches that lay in opposite directions from one another.

    Let me do some cropping for an example of what I mean about direction of hair and I will post an illustration.
    Not the character of the hair shaft itself but the direction it takes coming out of the follicle.
    It can be altered overnight !

    Lee
     

    Attached Files:

  15. swgoats

    swgoats New Member

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    Ok, I get it, thanks!
     
  16. fmg

    fmg New Member

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    I don't think that all color changes are due to a deficiency. I have a doe who always has soft, shiny hair, but it changes color. There is one area that is mostly white in the summer and fall, and all black in the winter and spring. I am going to post some pictures to show you.

    She was born last April. The first picture was taken I think sometime around June or July 2010.
     

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  17. fmg

    fmg New Member

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    This was taken in November 2010. That tiny speck of white disappeared entirely shortly after that. Sorry this is her other side, but she does have the same coloring on both sides...
     

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  18. fmg

    fmg New Member

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    This last one was taken a couple months ago, as a yearling. She was back to having more white again, and I think she is going blacker again as we speak.
     

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  19. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Nancy in nubians it is exactly the same. During the spring and summer as they shed out or are clipped, they are very dark in color, when winter comes they are brown or red, I have a lot of goats who are completely another color when shaved, so much so I will note it on their paperwork. Red, nearly black when shaved. The best way to describe fried hair from lack of copper is that they had a very bad perm, the ends if long are fried looking.