Mouth problem...

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by eliya, Jan 18, 2009.

  1. eliya

    eliya New Member

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    :help O.k. I'm a little stumped here. :help2 I have an almost 4 year old doe who is having some issues with her mouth. She is due in March.

    I noticed on Friday that she seemed a bit 'off'. She wasn't up at the manger eating with everyone else and just didn't seem quite right. I offered her some hay and she nibbled on it, but acted like it hurt her to eat. I took a look in her mouth as I thought maybe she hurt a tooth or something. Her right lip also looked a little swollen. Everything looked o.k. in her mouth. Her lip was a little thick, but not bad. I was amazed at how sharp and dirty looking her teeth were, so I looked at another goat. They looked the same, so I think I just haven't looked that far back in a goats mouth before. I know my fingers have discovered how sharp they are! :/

    Anyway, Saturday, her tongue was sticking just a little ways out of her mouth - more like she just had it between her lips on the right side. Not hanging or anything, but not all the way in her mouth like it should be. Her cheek along her teeth was puffed out a bit as well. She was separated from the rest of the herd at this point.

    Sunday: I took another look in her mouth (this time with a flashlight) and saw some *stuff* stuck in her cheek and between the upper and lower teeth on her right side (I think this is what made her cheek look puffy the day before as it wasn't puffed out after I took the stuff out). It is very strange 'stuff' it looks like possibly cud and something else - kind of a greyish/greenish/brownish. There was also some in her front teeth - looks like she needs to brush her teeth. It looks similar to what I have seen in goats with sore mouth. Only she doesn't have any sores like that on her mouth, just a little swelling and that gross looking 'stuff'. I did pry her mouth open and pull all that gook out. She did NOT like that!

    I am just wondering if any of you have seen something like this and know what it is. Thanks!
     
  2. KJFarm

    KJFarm Senior Member

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    Sounds like she has facial paralysis. Could have taken a blow to her head and face from fighting. It usually goes away with time, but you will need to help her keep the cud out of her cheeks.
     

  3. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    If it is a facial paralysis like Janie mentioned give her some B12 works wonders on Bells Palsey in humans and sure won't hurt the doe.
     
  4. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    :/ I would be concerned with the beginnings of Listeriosis. The lip, then the tounge.? Next will be the ear...well, unless it's a Nubian.

    Go to Goats 101 and look up updated version of Listeriosis.
    Kaye
     
  5. eliya

    eliya New Member

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    Thanks Kaye, Janie and Sondra.

    Kaye, I couldn't seem to find it on Goats 101?

    I did an internet search and came up with these symptoms for Listeriosis:
    Depression, decreased appetite, fever, leaning or stumbling or moving in one direction only, head pulled to flank with rigid neck, facial paralysis on one side, slack jaw, and drooling, abortions.

    She does not seem depressed, isn't stumbling or moving in one direction only, doesn't have her head pulled to flank, hasn't aborted. She does have a decreased appetite but that can be caused by lots of things. She hasn't been drooling a lot, but there was a little this morning. The only real symptoms that match are the facial paralysis on one side (and this isn't complete - she can still blink and open her mouth etc), and possibly the slack jaw. She isn't hanging her mouth open, the lip is just limp on that side. I'll check her temp. Don't know why I didn't do that yet (where is the hit your hand on your forehead smiley?!).

    The other thing is that "In most cases, both of these diseases (goat polio and Listeriosis) are seen in goats raised under intensive management conditions. Improper feeding, particularly feeding too much grain and too little roughage, is a significant factor in both diseases. Producers pushing the animal to gain weight too fast can induce this often fatal disease in their goats. Sudden changes in feed can also cause the onset of this disease.

    This doe has not been on any grain since I dried her off about a month ago and has had good quality hay available. Her feed has not been changed. We have not brought any new goats to the farm recently.
     
  6. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    It can also be caused by mold in the hay. AND IT DOESN'T necessarily mean rampant mold. That you can see.
    What you just described is the latter stages of Listo. and it didn't give you the end result-death. The object is to catch it early for best outcome. Which IS the lip/tounge/ then the ear...then other things.
    https://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,81.0.html

    First thing I'd still do...is give the Fortified B Complex, wait about an hr. and look for improvement. With Polio, you'll see improvement FAST. No, improvement, then I'd be going by the signs of Listo. and treating.
    Kaye
     
  7. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I would kind of doubt the info you copied and pasted is from someone who has had or treated listerosis. It has nothing to do with the amounts of grain eaten at all, it is about mold in goats. The first symptom you can see is a standing back from the herd and the start of facial never paralysis and gait issues because polio effects the nerves in the brain first. You would have dieing goats, you can't pull back if they are down, recombunt, head on flank and aborting. I have treated a herd twice, nothing down lived, but with getting away the mold issue (she used spent hay from a hay dealer for her bedding two years in a row) giving 10cc or more of pennicillin orally, injected and dex and using B vitmains like you are treating polio, just those simple things kept everyone we caught before they went down from dieing.

    Kaye even in a nubian it's a different look to the ear when they have the paralysis, but no I would doubt like on the swiss breed photos in GM you would have this as a first sign.

    Due in March you will simply have to guess, because if you start Dex, which is of course what you want to use, you may also loose the pregnancy, which if it's listerosis is lost already, just not aborted yet.

    So we will hope it's from fighting, but do watch her and the rest of the herd closely, for both fighting but also clean the barn, hay feeders, bedding and grain feeders. Vicki
     
  8. eliya

    eliya New Member

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    Thanks for the link Kaye. Does Listeriosis always have fever? Her temp is not high - 100.2 F. She is walking fine. I HATE using antibiotics, so don't want to use them unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. I will use them if I have to of course. The other goats seem to be doing fine. I will continue to watch them closely as well. Thanks Vicki.

    Kaye, I just gave her the B-complex shot. Will check on her to see if there is any improvement. If it's goat polio, will the 'improvement' mean her lip and tongue is back to normal?
     
  9. SherrieC

    SherrieC Active Member

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    not to butt in but isn't the B complex in different strengths? Just want to make sure youre giving enough to make a difference.
     
  10. eliya

    eliya New Member

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    Thanks Sherrie. My bottle says 5 cc per 100 lbs so that's what I gave.
     
  11. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    What's the mg of Thiamine Hydrochloride listed at on the back? If it's 12.5mg...then 5cc isn't going to touch it. If it's 100mg or more than 5cc is about right.
    Kaye
     
  12. eliya

    eliya New Member

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    It's 100 mg.
     
  13. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    Then it's Fortified B-complex. You're within the range to *see* if it's polio.

    Yes, you will start seeing improvement...but not drastic with the lip and tounge. In the staggers, or stays down, yes, they will get up and start eating. But, it needs to be given every 6 hrs. until no relapse. Not a one shot cure.

    This doe would have run a temp at the beginning of the onset if it was Listo, not all the way through. They spike a fever then drop.

    So, now, you have to watch this doe for either improvements or decline, since we can't see her.
    Kaye
     
  14. eliya

    eliya New Member

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    O.K. Just got back in from checking on her. Don't know if it was just wishful thinking, or if her tongue really was a little better. I cleaned out the stuck cud again. Thanks for the advice on every 6 hours. I'll keep that up.
     
  15. eliya

    eliya New Member

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    One thing I forgot to mention. She seems to shake herself fairly often. Not shaking like she's weak or cold, but like a dog shakes himself after a bath. She also shakes her head. I think she is shaking her head to get the cud out of her cheek. :) Not sure if that information gives you anything more to work with, but thought I'd throw it out.
     
  16. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    I personally think 100.6 is getting rather on the low side.

    On another note are you using Hay for bedding?? it molds and decays in their sleeping quarters
     
  17. eliya

    eliya New Member

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    I try to use straw, but a lot of the bedding ends up being the hay they waste from their manger...

    Yes, I thought her temp seemed a little low. It's been fairly cold here, maybe that's why her temp is down?
     
  18. hsmomof4

    hsmomof4 New Member

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    Is allowing the waste hay from mangers to end up as bedding a problem if you regularly (as in every day) clean out anything that is dirty or wet?
     
  19. ChristinaF.

    ChristinaF. Guest

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    I want to know this as well. We have lots of hay waste with our present feeders. We clean it up every four days. Its a large area and doesn't get wet. Could this still be a problem?

    Christina
     
  20. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Do your girls eat the spent hay? Mine don't. I think the spent hay that comes from your feeders is entirely different than bringing in bales of hay to use as bedding. I even go through my bales of straw to make sure they are nice, because I know the girls nose their way through the bedding no matter if it's straw or shavings. Vicki