MM Production

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by Daniel Babcock, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    I have taken the last 3 days off work to help out around the home. My wife, Elizabeth, just had our sixth child. There is always lots to do, however over these last 5 days I have been busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest :blush2 :blush2.

    Well I usually really like winter, but with all my does bred, I cant wait for early spring when I will have my first group of First Fresheners.

    So here is my question, to those of you with Miniature La Manchas how much milk can I expect from a first freshening doe?

    What would an average doe produce, daily?
    What about an excellent doe, daily?

    Do the miniature La Manchas reach peak production by the 3rd to 4th freshening?

    What would a peak producing excellend doe produce, daily?
    What would a peak producing average doe produce, daily?

    Thanks much in advance!
     
  2. Agape Oaks

    Agape Oaks Guest

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    Hi Daniel
    I only own 1 mini mancha. This year I put her on DHI as I always knew she milked a lot & wnated to see what the numbers were. So far, 252 days, 1878 pounds,3.4% protien, 4.4 % butterfat. She's still milking consistantly 5-6 pounds/day & I have her on an extended lactation. She's a 2nd freshening 3 year old. You can see her on my webpage - Mocha on

    http://www.agapeoaks.com/la_mancha_mini_mancha.htm
     

  3. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    You have some beautiful goats Pam, I thought I had been to everyones web, I still have lots to learn.

    I started with Mini-Manchas but am interested in getting some FB La Manchas. I only have three acres and somewhat limited barn space. Have you found that the MM and the La Manchas get along well enough to coexist?
     
  4. Agape Oaks

    Agape Oaks Guest

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    Daniel
    I have 3 acres & have my La Manchas, my one mini mancha & my Nigerians all together. In fact in my young doe pen, my smallest Nigerian ( Tanaina) is inseperable from my large La Mancha doeling (Dancer). They sleep together & eat side by side & play together. They were born a day apart
     
  5. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    I have found most 1st fresheners will give from a qt to half gal a day some of the really slack only a pint. But my best milkers give 1/2 to gal a day. as 2nd and 3rd fresheners. All mine are together ND/LaMancha/Nubian and MM and cohabit great.
     
  6. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    My original mini-manchas were raised on lambars right along with my nubains, and in both cases they ruled the roosts. I now have 4, 1 will be a FF, one a 2nd and a 4th and 5th....just like in all breeds I have milked, your FF milk about 1/2 of what they will as a 3rd freshener By 4 and 5 they are in their prime, milking as much as they ever will, but it's a very slow depletion as my 5 year old milked as much as all but two of my nubians, who are very good milkers.

    For myself, what I don't think you will see being so far north, is although Nubians will heat stress, or for us this year it was hurricane stress, and deplete milk (although will build back to a more normal lactation when the weather cools) the mini's milk, and milk, and milk some more. Vicki
     
  7. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    So Vicki how much do your mms milk?

    Also, since my decision to feed alfalfa hay over alfalfa pellets I have been doing a lot of research on alfalfa. I recently read the following on a MM breeders website. It is something that definitely concerns me.

    "For the past couple of years, I've been feeding alfalfa pellets, grass hay, minerals, all free choice, plus a little grain. Alfalfa pellets are 1/4-inch pellets. I feed alfalfa pellets instead of alfalfa hay because even with perfect, tender, third cutting alfalfa, there is too much waste feeding alfalfa hay. The goats eat the leaves, then the tiny stems. Then I throw away the rest, which is around 25 percent. Not only is that wasteful, you have to figure out where to put all that waste. And if you leave it long enough that the goats get hungry enough to eat the less tender stems, you get thin goats with poor production. I hated all the waste, so switched to alfalfa pellets. Even though the pellets are considerably more expensive, there's no waste, and the goats stay in much better condition."

    I spoke with some individuals I highly respect and was told Alfalfa is a relatively good feed for goats but has it short comings. The leaf and flower are easily converted, broken down and utilized by a goat digestive system. However the stem cell wall is to thick and fibrous for goats to digest and convert efficiently into good feed. Which is why so many breeders experience the dilemma (mentioned in the above quote). You can of course force the goats to eat the stems but the result will show with weight loss, milk reduction and continued long enough poor condition of the herd.

    Well I am once again weighing my options and trying to decide which way is up and what to do.

    I have been feeding the girls enough free choice alfalfa hay in the mornings to last the day and giving the boys at night the stemmier leftovers that the girls don't eat. The boys have been on a diet of grass hay and readily devour the leftover alfalfa, and in this way I find I have little waste.

    Am I wrong in my management practices. I am trying to understand what Ken always says about feeding a rumen before feeding the goat.

    What is the best procedure to follow for feeding mini manchas? How much of what and how often is ideal?

    Thanks again
     
  8. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Amy is a first cross and a 5 year old and easily milked 8 pounds, this was after an initial peak of 9 pounds (her bucklings nursed for a couple weeks while before the purchaser could get them) which went down to 8 pounds at about 10 weeks fresh, she easily milked this through the hurricane and after. We lost our fences so my minis are living down the road at a friends house who also raises minis, she was going to use my buck anyway so it worked out in the end, Amy is now bred and still milking. Inca is a 3rd generation and freshened milking 9 pounds and on her very short body milked as much as Amy. Sienna a 3rd generation came to me in milk and still milked 4 pounds as a FF after the move, all three are still in milk and bred. Petrie will freshen in Feb as a FF. All the girls get all the grass hay they want, live in a heavily wooded pen get the same minerals as the Nubians, but get 1 or 2 pounds of alfalfa pellets each day (when dried they will get more alfalfa pellets since they have such high multiple kids and it's their source of calcium) and about 1/2 a pound of grain on the milkstand. This is 1/2 the alfalfa pellets and 2 or 3 pounds less grain for the same amount of milk for our nubians. All 3 are in excellent flesh, milk well, and less grain has so improved Amy's manners of coming into the milkroom and standing to be milked. The buck who is 5 lives (deep wooded acreage) with the Nubian bucks so he eats what they do, lots of alfalfa pellets, grass hay and after rut meat goat pellets, if he was by himself or with other MM he would not get meat goat pellets.

    So although my Nubians milk about the same (except 3 who milk tremendously more), they do not on the amount of grain I don't feed the MM. In most cases the MM are milking on the grain left over in the feeders after the Nubians go up.

    I don't go for the argument on alfalfa pellets......I don't' feed them for roughage, I replace alfalfa pellets roughage with grass hay and plus my girls all have acres of tall unimproved pasture and underbrush in our woods...I replace alfalfa for my calcium and most of my protein needs (we simple can't add a calcium mineral to the feed or minerals and not have hypocalcemia here)....and at 51 I am not hauling, stacking, feeding, and pitchforking alfalfa into the compost pile. I don't have a husband doing chores with me, or kids left and grandson who helps me do chores is 3 :) So for me, alfalfa pellets make sense. Also with my grass hay being roughage, and this weird idea of mine that since it is grown all over, where ever the broker buys it and then sells it by the semi load to my feed dealer, that in eating it from so many different sources my goats get vitamins and minerals not found in the soil (acid from the piney woods, high in iron) around here.

    At some point you just read as much as you can, look at the website of the folks goats or visit in person, and then go for it. The biggy is change. Goats do poorly with change. Set your management in stone, and then only make changes that you see, not hear, are going to improve your overall herd health or milk amounts etc....some changes are unattainable for your area, your breed, or your needs.

    Alot of folks on here have been here and seen my goats and the very frugal way my goats are raised. Yet they are large, well grown and excellent milkers who milk consistently for a very long time. My girls are very deep bodied and most even on does who are just fresh, I am constantly asked if my does are bred. Sure I could probably get more milk out of them than I do, I know that Bab's could easily compete for top 10 awards living up north with her head in the alfalfa that they can get, she milked almost 16 pounds when first fresh, on a very nicely attached udder. Even you should have better milk yields with your weather and lack of parasties than we fight.

    Also, for myself it's not what they are milking first fresh, but what are they milking 7 months later when being bred, through our horrible summers etc....

    The MM are incredible hardy milkers. With large areas to live in so they can glean alot of their own food, you could have does in excellent flesh milking huge profits without alot of the grain. But you do have to feed calcium in a digestable form each and every day, they just need alot less than their bigger counterparts.

    I am not doing the normal breeding down into purebred most are. My next buck on deposit is actually a purebred LaMancha buck bred to a 3rd generation CH mini. I want to continue the hybrid vigor, and I would love a whole milkstring of Amy's (without her bitchiness :) Vicki
     
  9. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    I'm just here to say Congratulations on the new baby! Hooray! :) Camille
     
  10. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    Thanks Camille, baby and mom are doing great moms a little tired but that comes with the territory.

    Vicki; great info on your MM herd and background on your farm wow I wish I had a lot more wooded acreage! Unfortunately, I only have three acres, with about half of it accessible to the goats in different pastures. My dilema is this. I have decided to feed alfalfa hay, yet I have been told that it is only a relatively good feed, due to stems being too hard to digest.

    I acknowledge that the condition of my goats will be the best indicator, however in your opinion is how much alfalfa hay should I be feeding? How long should I leave it in the feeders? How much ends up being pitched to compost?

    I have 8 MM's 6 does and two bucks. I feed the girls alfalfa hay in the morning then by aevening whatever they have not eaten goes to the bucks. My bucks who are fed only grass hay readily devour what is left, stems and all. I don't want to starve the girls or stress out their digestive systems by forceing them to eat stems. I also feed about 1 pound alfalfa pellets per doe per day.

    Thanks for your advice.
     
  11. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I am hearing you, and do know what you want me to tell you is to put out a 12 ounce flake once a day, and feed exactly 1/2 pound of grain twice a day. But nobody can tell you this, every bail of hay is different. I will tell you whoever is saying this to you "yet I have been told that it is only a relatively good feed, due to stems being too hard to digest.
    " about alfalfa hay does not only NOT know what they are talking about they also don't know anything about ruminants who can turn any stem into feed stuff in a healthy rumen, more so a goat, and more so alfalfa than any other stem you will find :) I would stop listening to them.

    Alfalfa is the perfect food, high in protein, high in calcium sure it lacks energy but all forage does.

    When relying on alfalfa for all this, having the best hay feeders you can find becomes paramount.

    I would bring my goats out of their barn/stall into the milkroom in the mornings for their grain, they then went out the out door where they would get as much alfalfa as they could clean up while I finished milking and put the milk away. I only put out as much alfalfa as they would clean up. They were shooed out of the holding pen, and out into their pasture which connected by another door to their barn/stall and they had grass hay. This was the only way I could keep alfalfa waste to a minimum. Vicki