mini saanens?

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by peregrine, Jan 17, 2009.

  1. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    I love my saanen doe, and would like another. BUT I do NOT want to deal with an enormously huge and powerful saanen buck at my place. And I know my husband does nor either. I am really excited though at the idea of working to produce mini-saanens, using a ND buck. Does anyone here breed mini saanens and have any advice for me? What should I look for in a buck? As far as coloration is concerned. Does buck color matter? I have potentially two ND bucks to look at tomorrow...I'd like to know your opinions, if at all possible, I know its short notice, before I go because I planned to draw some blood for disease panel while I am there. (oooh I have a class afterward, I will show up smelling like a buck bwahahaha! too funny. oh well.). So, you can see, if I know before hand that a black and white buck is NO GOOD for breeding mini saanens then I wont have to get all stinky!
    Thanks for any help!
    Alisa~
     
  2. Legend Hills

    Legend Hills New Member

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    Saanens breed standard is white or light cream? So if you were to breed to a buck and produced color, would you really have a mini saanen or would you maybe have a mini sable?
     

  3. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    Saanen breed standard is white with cream being acceptable. I think breeding back may be in order over a few generations, with animals that meet that standard. I dont think a mini sable would be the result, because I think that sable is 100% recessive saanen genetics. I did read that the white is dominant, and the sable is a result of crossing two recessives. So, is that what I will be dealing with?--unless I get a white buck (and even then he will still throw color, correct?)--I'd be backcrossing any nice white offspring over generations until they meet the mini standard, and "culling" (selling for pets) any that I dont want to breed (those that are spotty or dark).
     
  4. Ravens Haven

    Ravens Haven New Member

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    Are you wanting to stay with color? And white is pretty dominant so you may not get color even if bred to a colored buck. I would look for health, quality of the herd, confirmation, but also remember just b/c a ND buck is small does NOT mean that he won't or can't hurt you. A buck is a buck no matter what his size. I have Lamanchas and Nubians and both breeds bucks are HUGE but they are gentle giants and so far all the Saanen bucks I have ever came across and believe me that is alot, have all been gentle giants. But no matter how gentle, rut turns most bucks into mindless beings so they are very able to hurt you.
     
  5. Legend Hills

    Legend Hills New Member

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    I did not know that about the color in the sable being the recessive gene. Thanks. Sorry I do not know the answer to your question. It would make sense though, if the white gene is dominate to breed back to white animals. :shrugs


    I have Alpines. My buck is a very easy keeper. Very gentle. A bit loud during rut though. Then I used to own a white ND buck. He scared me. I suppose it depends upon the individual buck. I hear genetics might play a part in temperament as well. Interesting thought if true. :)
     
  6. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    No. I dont want color, in the mini saanen--I want a little mini white saanen. BUt the thing that makes me happy about this is that I get to have a ND doe or two as well and breed them for the color-fun. I do know that the buck that sired my doe is a gentle giant as you say. But he is also a huge beast and the fencing to keep him in is SOOOOO high. And I like the idea of a smaller animal having more space in the buck pen--that is, we would provide him, and a friend, with as much space as we would provide a larger breed, thereby allowing them more room to breathe. ! I do like the idea of small bucks :) I will be sure to get a gentle one that has been handled and is friendly. One of the scariest things I can remember as a kid is being chased by a wild buck rearing up after me--I have that image of him crashing toward me burned into my brain. yikes! My husband and I met working on a project where we had to trap, kennel and treat free roaming wild wolves (he still does this as his job)--we are pretty used to handling wild animals, especially ones that can hurt us! But goats are new to us!

    Interesting about the ND buck scaring you Legend Hills. I guess it does all come down to individual animals, nature and nurture....Did you know the ND buck from birth, buy him as an adult? What was his temperment when you met him? Curious to know if you thought you had a sweet gentle one that got aggressive, or if he just got nutsy during rut, or what...?
     
  7. Legend Hills

    Legend Hills New Member

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    We bought him as an adult. A package deal really with two does. He was skittish in the beginning and then would get bolder and test his limits. I forgot to mention that he had horns. I was okay with him while he was mine but a friend up the road from me absolutely adored him and so when we decided to concentrate on Alpines only, we sold our NDs to her. Well, her kids "played" with the buck in such a way that I strictly warned them against. He turned mean and dangerous. Guess who had to handle him for awhile until they learned how to clip hooves and such? Yup, me. Good thing they know how now. But yicks! He came at me several times. I barely had the strength to grab him by the horns once and put him to the ground so I could "get away". Yicks! Probably not the best thing to do but it saved me. I think adrenaline played a big part in that one. They asked me for a suggestion on what to do with him at that point. I suggested a nice barbecue. They still have him though. He was/is such a beautiful thing. Too bad I won't go near him now.
     
  8. MRFBarbara

    MRFBarbara Guest

    Hello Alisa, Welcome to the forum.. I have ND's and I raise a couple of mini-saanans also..
    First off I will tell you that in order for an ND to breed a Saanan doe, sometimes he needs help reaching her.. I use a pallet covered with plywood.. back the doe up to it.. and he can get the job done just fine.. Second, about the color, white is dominant.. I have had approximately 12 mini-Saans born here and all but one was pure white, no matter what color the buck was...
    Any buck with horns can be bad, but ND's are very very easy to control, I can hold them down, easily.. My bucks are big loveable babies even during rut.. they don't fight me or even try, but it is not allowed here.. from the start when they are kids I let them know who is boss.. period..
    I love my mini-Saans... great milkers too.. combination of the best of both worlds in some of the newer mini breeds out there..
    In purchasing a buck, how did his dam milk, what has he thrown so far in udders, what is his confirmation.. etc.. how are his daughters milking, are there records..
    Barbara
     
  9. Legend Hills

    Legend Hills New Member

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    Definitely let them know their boundaries. I did with my Alpine and he is wonderful. He's my big baby although I always respect the power he can hold :)
     
  10. Anita Martin

    Anita Martin Senior Member

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    I only have one buck and he is a large Alpine, and although he really doesn't "see" me during rut, he would never purposely hurt me. He is the sweetest, kindest guy in the world during all the rest of the year, but during rut, he is so focused on the girls, that he will knock me down trying to get to one. A pen can be set up so that you do not need to enter it to feed and water. My pen is not set up that way, but I feed him in the barn and he cannot see the girls unless he goes outside, so it has never been a problem. I went in his pen every single day during rut, changed his water, put desitin on his front legs, etc. without any problems. He has small scurs, but no horns and has never butted me even one time. I would definately choose a bottlefed buck that was given a lot of affection from his people, but not allowed to overstep boundaries. If you chose one that is wild and uncontrollable it will be extremely hard to give him basic care like hoof trimming, worming, etc. If you can't step in the pen with him without his acting like a jerk or running away, leave him there, no matter his size. How about taking your does to a buck this year, and buying a buck kid this spring to use next fall?
    Anita
     
  11. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    Of all the breeds of bucks I have seen, the Saanen bucks I have met were the gentlest. I have never owned one, but my good friend has had bucks of most large breeds and I help her work with them. She pens them in with cattle panels and they stay put. The only buck I've seen escape her pen is a Togg buck she's leasing. The only mean buck I've met was a Nubian I had and he went on the meat truck. In his case, it had nothing to do with handling, nor genetics. Neither his sire nor his son acted like him and I raised him from a kid and he was never mishandled. Some bucks are just whacko when they are in rut. Mini goats seem to be the escape artists, so you'll still need to be attentive to the buck's fencing.
    How the genetic thing works: if you breed a Saanen to a colored buck, you'll most likely get white or light cream kids. The white color is dominant. Some of the kids will likely carry a recessive gene for color. If you breed two goats with genes recessive for color, you get Sables. A Saanen buck my friend once had was a color carrier. When bred to a Saanen doe who was not a color carrier, he threw white kids. I bought one of those white kids and bred her back to him. The result was a Sable buckling. He also produced Sable twins with another doe with the recessive gene. Kathie
     
  12. peregrine

    peregrine New Member

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    Thanks everyone :) I am looking forward to this. I cant wait to see what spring brings--what new goats (NDs) I will find for us.
     
  13. rushs

    rushs New Member

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    how much do the mini saanen milk, how to keep them small thanks
     
  14. hsmomof4

    hsmomof4 New Member

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    You should start a new thread, as this one that you brought back from the dead is 7 years old and not entirely related to your question. It's unlikely that you will get the answers that you are looking for here (I only looked at it because I'm a moderator.)

    Mini's tend to milk 1/2-3/4 of what their full-sized counterparts would, but it depends on genetics. Since you are breeding a full-sized Saanen doe with a Nigerian Dwarf buck to start, you will get something in between the two. From there, you will breed towards what YOU want. Obviously, you eventually want a goat that will look like a smaller Saanen, and be proportionate, as opposed to a goat that looks like a Saanen with short Nigerian legs. It will probably be several generations before you get a goat that fits the bill. If you want smaller goats, you breed nice goats that are on the smaller side together. If you want nice udders, breed only goats with nice udders (or bucks whose dams have nice udders). Etc. Breeding minis is going to be more time consuming if you are starting from scratch than if you were just breeding Saanens, or just Nigies, and working to improve your herd.