mineral questions

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by baileybunch, Dec 27, 2007.

  1. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    Trace? Chelated? Synthetic? What other types are there? How do you know which you are getting in your mineral mix? Which is best? I've been reading up on minerals and mineral mixes and trying to learn why I do what I do! Not just "because my goat group suggested it". So does anyone out there have some helpful information about minerals?

    I've been reading and searching on line but would like some input from, yes!, my goat group! :biggrin
     
  2. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Susie I know am not answering your questions but this is what is in Tech Master that Vicki and I use.

    Ingrediets
    Monocalcim Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Dried Moasses, Yeast Culture, Dehydrated Kelp Meal , Potassium Amion Acid Complex, Potassium Chloride, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Sulfate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Zince Sufid Chelate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Oxide, Cobalt Carbonate, Lecithin, Soybean Oil, Mineral Oil, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Dried Aspergitlus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Feermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillius, -Acidopphilus Fermentation Product, Vitamin A, Bitamin D3, Vit E, Choline Dhloride, Riboflavin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothemnate,Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Calcium iodate, Ethyfendediamine Dihydriodide, Thiamin Mononitrate, Folice Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vit b-6) Vit B-12
     

  3. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    Linda?! ;) I'm Susie! :biggrin Thanks for the response. And I am using Tech Master Complete now, too. What I am trying to learn is how to identify what form of minerals is being used and which form is the best absorbed. How do I know that "Momocalcium Phosphate" is trace, chelated or synthetic?
     
  4. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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  5. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I don't even know how to answer you. I know you want me to point you to a website or book, and cause I said so only works on children. And I can't point you in the direction of one book or one website, just in years of trying this or that, asking this person and that and testing.

    I prefer some mills products over others because it's not just label appeal, it's quality of products. Finding other minerals with any chealted minerals in them, kelp, yeast, is tough. Grain products by this same mill with equal high quality minerals and biotin, probiotics, lisine etc in them.

    Feeding and mineral programs really become personal quests each of us go onto. In the beginning it's enough to rely on someone who knows more than you do and has goats you admire...but I also know I moved off my mentors program also when I learned more.

    So this is no answer for you, other than to just search, test and don't get sucked in by the advertising. Vicki
     
  6. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

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    I have been using Cargill Right Now Emerald and am hoping to find Cargill Right Now Onyx. The Cargill Right Now line is made for cattle and the different "colors" (Emerald, Bronze, Gold) are for different times of the year depending on what type of forage is growing during that season. The Cargill Right Now "Onyx" is the show cattle blend, also designed for cattle under stress. It has more minerals in it and I believe it is what Sharon was using (?).

    Anyway, my DH Billly could only find the Emerald. My goats are ga-ga for it. I still have to bolus them with copper though as they do still show deficincy as soon as the previous bolus wears off.

    But this Cargill cattle mineral is a product my goats really like and I can get locally at a resonable price. Much cheaper than a horse mineral.

    The Emerald has 2,500 ppm copper and low salt at 15% which is important to me. I do not like to buy high salt minerals as they eat less of those.
     
  7. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    Jo@LaudoDeumFarm New Member

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    If you see the sulfate or sulfite after a mineral like zinc, or copper then it's an inorganic mineral. Inorganic minerals are what are the closest thing to what we find in soils and metals. On a cautionary note, they also tend to be more difficult to use than most chelates, more toxic in large does, and more difficult for the body to absorb and get rid of.

    A chelated mineral is a inorganic mineral that is bound to a protien (amino acid) or an enzyme. This mimics closely how minerals are found in nature in herbs and plants.
    Sometimes they are called amino acid compounds, or complexes. Some common names are proteinate or glycinate and the copper source I use for myself is called copper gluconate. All metallic minerals (or trace minerals) can be chelated. These are cobalt, copper, manganese, zinc, iron, and maybe I left some out. :D
    Sadly not all chelated minerals are the same, with the same effect on the body. There are brand differences, and differences to what they are bonded to. Most minerals mixes have some chelates in them but these are generally too expensive to use exclusively so they add a small amount of chelates and then also add inorganic minerals too. That's why you might see two kinds of a mineral on a label. Chelates also seem to help inorganic minerals be absorbed and this is also why some manufactures like to add both kinds.

    Most kinds can be searched for on google if you want to check on a product.
     
  8. ellie

    ellie New Member

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    Is anyone on this forum using Mary Kellogg's minerals? I'd sure like to hear if those using them are having as good a result as I suspect they should, but since the new knees I don't have any goats again (yet) so haven't done my own research.

    Thanks,
    Ellie
     
  9. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    I don't know of anyone here who uses Maxi-Min but I origianlly found out about it through a goat farm website. Thanks for the help on identifying minerals...still clear as mud! :)
     
  10. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    Jo@LaudoDeumFarm New Member

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    I am using maxi-min. what would you like to know? :D
     
  11. ellie

    ellie New Member

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    What are your results? Have you seen a big difference, little difference or no difference? I'd like to do an article about minerals one of these days, so I'm looking for info and annecdotal experiences.

    Thanks,

    Ellie
     
  12. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    Jo@LaudoDeumFarm New Member

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    yes, I've seen a big difference in the goats since we have been using them. Less signs of copper deficiency, no goaty milk taste. Also the milk isn't separating when frozen. (These last two things have to do with cobalt, I think.) The goats like these minerals a lot too. I can't give them a huge amount at a time for fear they will just keep eating them, so I give them a couple times a week. I do not cut them with salt. So they have been on them for a year and a half or close to two years, and we do like how the goats look.

    Oh yeah, I have a lot of black goats so we are also seeing much less color fading in them, too. All of the girls have had strong heats this past fall; most are bred for feb/march kidding. Back when we first got these goats, heats were very scarce, or were very "quiet." Not anymore though. Before we bred them heat time turned into a circus, with the does butting and fighting for the best place to stand on the fence and flag the bucks. I take it as a good sign of a return of fertility and health.
    So yes, we are happy with them and I'm going to order them again for a another year or two and we'll see if we keep getting good results. :lol
     
  13. ellie

    ellie New Member

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    Thanks, Jo, great info, and congrats on your results. That's pretty much as I suspected given the research and care that's gone into the formulation.

    Ellie
     
  14. 2Sticks

    2Sticks New Member

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    Where can the Maxi-Min be purchased?
    Tamera
     
  15. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Ellie, I will add that this idea of feeding livestock minerals that are not diluted with salt is a horrific one to me.

    Livestock should have access to salt everyday, not a few times a week. Goats are given alot of intelligence they do not have in being able to go to mineral formulations, or 'smorgusboards of minerals' a quote from Dr. Samuel Guss...and then say "Oh, I need some molybellum today", as they choose from minerals, vitamins, kelp, yeast, baking soda etc.... When in fact goats go to mineral for salt cravings, which are now being scewed with the whole molassas thing. So now we take out the salt, and give free access to minerals, minerals that can be overdosed, and copper sulfates that are known to be dangerous in the rumen each day. This is a fact not antedotal, copper sulfate in the rumen is harmful.

    I hate this whole internet idea that if something works, lets use more and more and more of it.

    Because there are specific problems in Oklahoma that this mineral was formulated for them, it does not mean that anyone has ran one liver biopsy, one blood test, or do you know if molybelum or magnesium is a problem in your area that you should feed it straight? Do you need this amount of magnesium in your herd? If a copper bolus study in the pacific Northwest says to use 1/3 of a bolus, do you then give a whole one? Then because of the internet.....without one copper liver study in your area of the united states by one breeder you then bolus all your stock?

    This whole antedeotal way of raising stock is not an improvement to me. I hate to be DMR but where are the nutritionists from mills you are purchasing your stuff from, helping you with rations?

    And one antedotal piece of info from one herd, and then a new person comes on this thread to ask where this product can be purchased.

    Are they going to put it out 24/7/365 like minerals are fed? Sprinkle it over grain? Use it every 3 days, every 6 days?

    I feel very sorry for new people without mentors, who are having to disern between real information and antedotal information that means nothing when you look at it passed face value. With no testing. Makes me a little bit angry to be honest, because then when in crisis mode, is this mineral realted problems or something else. Vicki
     
  16. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    Jo@LaudoDeumFarm New Member

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    The maxi-min information provided says that they can be diluted with salt. She does give instructions for this and if you talk with her she will tell you why and how.

    Goodness, I should have made it absolutely clear that I wrote what I do, and Eek, I'm just too lazy to mix the salt in with the minerals. BUT I put out cups not pounds and nobody gets too much. :D Mary Kellog just doesn't include salt in the recipe because it is easily available everywhere, and why pay all that shipping on it? She does give instructions for mixing it in. I have a minerals shed where I can put out individual supplements and salt is in there along with kelp, and the minerals. The shed has lots of compartments so I can break up the minerals and all the goats get to eat what they think they need. It's unscientific, I know.

    The minerals mix does not have molasses in it.

    I probably should have just answered you privately, Ellie. I have the feeling that this mineral is going to meet the needs of those goat keepers in the northern u.s. better than other mineral mixes. I think it would be foolish to bolus along with using this mineral, and I do not think she recommends it.

    Mary Kellog is great to talk to and she an tell anyone who is interested in the minerals mix about why she includes certain ingredients, or why it has higher cobalt or copper than other minerals mixes. Anyone interested in it should talk to her about it first. I don't have her email handy, but a few weeks back somebody posted her information. You can probably search for it.
     
  17. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    Jo@LaudoDeumFarm New Member

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    Monocalcium phosphate is manufactured from specifically prepared (defluorinated) wet-process phosphoric acid and calcite raw materials. (This would be dolomite or other rock powders, oyster shells, bones, high in calcium.)

    Monocalcium phosphate is used as a fodder additive and as a supplement to birds and poultry feeds. This product supplements the feed ratio by phosphorus and calcium – mineral elements so important for formation of steady bones, normal functioning of energy, albumen metabolism, reproduction, neural and immunity systems. Mineral additive of such composition is especially beneficial for herbivorous animals. (http://www.lifosa.com/en/produktai/prod_moca.html)

    Monocalcium phosphate is available commercially in the anhydrous or monohydrate form. Both are used as a leavening acid to replace cream of tartar in foods, 'straight baking powder' is a mixture of monocalcium phosphate monohydrate and sodium hydrogen carbonate. Monocalcium phosphate is used extensively in the fertiliser industry, when it was noted in 1880 that acidulated bones (containing tricalcium phosphate) made good fertiliser.

    other names: calcium phosphate, monobasic, monohydrate, calcium tetrahydrogen diorthophosphate.

    just try googling what you want to know about.
     
  18. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    Thanks, Jo. I was using Monocalcium Phosphate as an example. I'm still not getting it. What key words would I look for to tell if a mineral is trace, chelated or synthetic? Does that make sense? As in will I see "chelated <blank>"? Or, as in what you posted for Monocalcium Phosphate, it said "manufactured". Is that a key? Or will this be a mystery to someone like me. :?
     
  19. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    Jo@LaudoDeumFarm New Member

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    If it has chelated minerals than most likely the tag is going to say chelated or it is going to name the mineral as a protinitate, amino acid complex, or a chelate in the ingredient list and all of them boast about increased "bio-availability" of the minerals. I'm not sure if manufacturers are required to mention if the minerals are chelates or not.

    For instance, if you look at the tech master, it says which ones are chelated on the tag; "magnesium amino acid chelate" for instance, and it says which ones are not like- copper sulfate, copper oxide and cobalt carbonate.

    I do not think there are synthetic minerals. (However, there are synthetic vitamins) If I remember correctly, there are what they consider macro-minerals (like salt-potassium) and then there are trace minerals like copper, cobalt ect. To make a chelated mineral they bind a trace mineral to a protien, amino acid or an enzyme in a chemical process to make it easier on the body to utilize.

    Monocalcium phosphate is calcium and phosphorus bound together to make one supplement. They are calling it manufactured because they are putting them together in a chemical process to sell it as "monocalcium phosphate."

    In nature however, quite often minerals are bound together in the soil or mining deposits. Dolomite is calcium and magnesium plus other trace minerals.

    So generally what I do is if I see a name I don't recognize I look it up. There are some articles out there on reading mineral tags but none I've seen from a goat perspective. This one has a table of common ingredients in it: http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1287w.htm

    Most manufacturer's have information about their mineral mixes that you can get a hold of. You can also call or email the companies for info about ingredients. I wouldn't hesitate to ask them. That's about what I know. Maybe someone else knows if there is a good book or website out there that explains livestock supplements? Perhaps they will share it with us.
     
  20. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    Thank You! That's exactly what I needed to know. I was just curious about what type of minerals were used in mineral mixes and how to identify them. Thank you very much! Your information was very helpful.