lost 2 6 mo olds, 3rd sick but fine now

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by amyrob, Dec 12, 2008.

  1. amyrob

    amyrob Guest

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    The day after Thanksgiving, my hubby brought a young buckling from the barn who was down. He was mildly bloated, low temp and weak. Was able to warm him up and get him going w/ probiotics, some calcium drench and Penicillin-suspected pneumonia. Seemed to poop large chunks the first few days. I have no idea what went on but he would be fine inside, got temp back to 101 but every time we put him outside, he would get weak and go down again, so we wouldbring him back in. After thinking he was out of the woods, he really went down after being outside awhile yesterday and he never recovered. Temp went down to around 90! Same symptoms in another little guy but we found him way too late. Temp didn't even register on thermometer at first.

    Any ideas? All the other 3 in that pen are just fine and we had 3 doelings w/ less protection than they did and they are great.
     
  2. Amanda Lee

    Amanda Lee Member

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    Sorry for your loss. :sniffle


    What have you been de-worming with is my first question? How often have the kids been wormed?
    Did you run fecals to check and see if the wormer worked or what kinda of worms your needed to be treating?
    Sorry I am all too new to goats to help much other than my questions will let the more knowledgeable goat folks help you better.
    Amanda Lee
     

  3. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    Sorry to hear about your two bucks. Not your future herd sire, I hope?!

    I would strongly suspect pneumonia. The low temp would be because he was already shutting down. You need either Nuflor(the best) and Banamine or Excenel/Naxcel and Banamine, all Vet Rx items.

    Your other choice would be enterotoxemia. Did they eat too much grain or something new? You need anti-toxin (and the vets don't carry it - Jeffers item, or another goat person) for entero and one shot of banamine to help calm the gut. Activated charcoal works pretty well if caught in time and is certainly better than nothing. Give mixed with some gatorade - drench.

    ??? Worming? CDT shots? Any other history that would help diagnose this? Sometimes you have to go with the "kitchen sink" method until you can figure out what is going on. The fact that he did improve would suggest that the antibiotics did help, but if not enough, they can relapse. Also , good TLC can not be overrated. If they need to stay in the house until they get their energy back, then do it. Blankets (child's sweat shirt) if out during the day. Or a heat lamp in a corner of a "sick pen". Double check your hay, grain access.

    Please feel free to call me in an emergency. It won't be too late for me (after 12 AM PST is a bit late to expect me to be coherent, but I would certainly try! ) If any of your other kids start to look "off" call me ASAP. I would probably give them all a shot of B-complex (3-6 ccs) and some Probios in the meantime. Extra bedding etc. We have a wicked cold snap rolling in, as I am sure you know!

    Camille

    Camille
     
  4. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    what's your feeding program?
     
  5. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    I live in Montana, too and have not noticed any of my goats getting sick from being outside in the winter. If your goats are not able to keep up their body temperature when outdoors, one thing I would suspect is that their rumens aren't functioning properly. Have you done cocci treatment on them? To be on the safe side, I'd treat all the remaining kids with a course of oral liquid sulfa. The stuff I use is dosed at 1cc per 5 pounds the first day, then 1cc per 10 pounds for four more days. I also treat sick kids with Thiamin given subQ. If you suspect pneumonia, pennicillin really isn't the drug of choice to treat it. Nuflor or Naxcel are much better. If you haven't wormed recently, that would also be a good idea. I would also check them for lice. If another kid gets sick, it might be a good idea to take it to the vet and if you lose another, a necropsy might be able to tell you what you're dealing with. With the weather we're expecting, be sure they have plenty of dry straw in their shelter and enough good quality hay. I feed alfalfa. Kathie
     
  6. Bella Star

    Bella Star New Member

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    Check those gums and eyelids as this could be the HC worm and it does exactly like you said your kid did before it died , Some of the wormers are not working now so check your goats !
    Sorry for your loss.
     
  7. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I also would have a fecal ran. Mostly because with it so cold out you could have cool weather worms simply eating their condition. There tummies hurt so they don't eat hay robustly because it hurts to ruminante through it. Are your kids carry deep large barrells? Or do they look more torpedo shaped? That can tell you if they have large functioning rumens.

    Pnemonia is not caused by the cold, or here by cold enough to snow one night and then your out in a tshirt the next. It's cuased by a weakend immunity, which can be from worms, either condition killing worms or blood sucking worms. 6 month olds normally have really good immunity to cocci, especially with you being newer and being up north. But if those kids are worm burdened than yes the normal cocci level can grow, which then destroys the intestine, even without one day of diarrhea...with the intestine being where nearly all immunity comes from, you can see how any intestinal distress can make goats ill.

    Pnemonia is nearly always herd wide illness, when it is not you have to look at the individual goat, are they the low men on the totem pole? The youngest? Maybe they aren't getting the warm place to sleep, enough food, being picked on all the time, this also lowers immunity. And the last phenomenon is, kids born to first fresheners who simply don't have colostrum that is full of immunity, their kids fail to thrive like kids out of older moms because of this lack of maternal immunity.

    But basically we need alot more information to help. Vicki
     
  8. amyrob

    amyrob Guest

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    Wow, so many more questions. Thanks for all you condolences and comments. I tried to get some Exenel from a vet here but his response was less than desirable. "Penicillin is all you need goats are hardy" He asked me what Excenel was. I do know I can get some from another vet. I can get some fecals run of the ones still here in that pen. One of the other little ones has a bit of a round gut but he and all the others are really acting fine. Eyelids and gums looked fine to me. I did check that first thing. Rob thinks maybe it was partly from giving them some alfalfa when they had mostly been on some grass hay but we really aren't sure. They always leave some of the grass in the feeder, so they could've gorged on it. I did some goat serum, some Bose and vit B to give them a boost and as I stated did probiotics and some electrolytes. It was wasay to tell when they hit the slippery slope w/ the temp not even registering. I just couldn't get them to get it up.. Hadthe one who lingered longer wrapped in faux sheepskin. He ate and drank fine when he was up and about.

    Camille, Volcano (Velvet's buckling) is alive and well. One of them was my nubian buckling but I did keep one other one intact. Just bred Velvet the other day. Vaquero does his job, then settles right down and beds down w/ the doe. Quite a gentleman, Doesn't run them like crazy. He is a sweet boy.

    Well, we will keep up the vigil on watching the others. Below 0 here today.
     
  9. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    "Penicillin is all you need goats are hardy" He asked me what Excenel was.

    Okie Dokie!!! I think you just might want to work with the other vet, this one not only doesn't know anything about goats, I am shocked he doesn't know what Excenel is!! Doesn't sound like he would care to learn, either.

    With eyelids and gums fine, and as long as you wormed these kids at 6 and 9 weeks, you shouldn't have any worm problems, especially if you have good size pens. And not only should they be past the cocci stage, it has been cold enough that that shouldn't be a factor. i am inclined to guess "it was something they ate", and they were the biggest pigs.

    Definitely keep an eye on them all and support up on any that make you look twice. It is frustrating when you can't tell what the problem is.... Make sure they have free choice access to baking soda too.

    Glad to know that both Vaquero and Volcano are both fine. Camille
     
  10. amyrob

    amyrob Guest

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    I have another 6 mo doeling w/ low temp last night. Have a coat on her and she is inside. And our big wether was down so we put him on a sled and hauled him to the mud room, his temp was normal. Weak in the legs and can't really get up. Was grinding his teeth some so I know he was in pain. Have him on some pain meds and antibiotics. Will get some Excenel form my friend. Thought he spiked a fever last night but is normal today. Not really wanting to drink but is eating a little hay. Also have dosed him x 2 w/ probiotics. Ruminating a bit better noe but he doesn't really want to drink. Will add some molasses to the warm water and try to drench him to have him get the idea. As for feeding program, the have Sweelix loose mineral and baking sida all the time. Have been on good grass hay most of the time but am increasing alfalfa ration. I was afraid my hubby switched too fast and that may have caused the others to get sick, so I was hesitant. Had him add in more today. Can it be that they tolerated the grass hay better in the warm weather because they were getting some pasture too? Going to call Camille later and talk w/ her.
     
  11. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    I just read this Amy. So sorry this is happening.

    Could the hay be moldy/bad? I would certainly switch back to the grass hay until you can determine if it is moldy or perhaps has some kind of poisonous weed in it?

    Do these goats have shallow respirations? Seem to be laboring to breathe? (Back to the pneumonia question...)

    Quite frankly, I am at a loss right now.

    Please update everyone on the worming and vaccinations you followed just to help them rule out potential problems. Also mention when you wormed and with what.

    Anyone have any ideas? Please help us figure out what is wrong with Amy's goats!!! Camille
     
  12. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Is anyone close enough to you to come to your farm and take a look see? Sometimes there are things wrong that we simply don't pick up because we are right there. I would also suspect mold in the hay and listerosis, it becomes quickly a herd wide problem, check not ony the hay but the feeders. Also are you feeding grain? Silage? Vicki
     
  13. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    If Amy lived closer, I'd go over and look at her goats. She lives several hours from me and it's 20 below out tonite. Not the kind of weather to go anywhere. Kathie
     
  14. amyrob

    amyrob Guest

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    Talked to Camille earlier on the phone and we have a game plan. A 6 yo wether went down last night but is very different than the little ones that have been gettting sick--just need to figure what is wrong w/ mt feeding program to preventfix it. Have been feeding same grass hay since July. Started in w/ a bit of alfalfa w/ the other haya few months ago and it is the same hay we have gotten the apst few years and haven;t had these problems before. Did Ivermectin past for 2x the weight in fall and antitoxin to all. Bose before birth and to kids after. Have Sweetlix and baking soda free choice.

    Just wrote a response but lost it trying to cut and paste this--part of my PM to Camille. "Thanks, Camille. He really isn't much better. He is acting so much like the one we lost 3 yrs ago, I think I might actually "get" this if I see it again. Now if I only had success w/ the treatment, I would be happy! I think when they are already down, it seems like it is already too late for polio. I don't see how you could catch it sooner unless you had a video link to the damn pen. It happened lickity split in both cases. No real forewarning. I know w/ my mom how fast brain infection goes, unfortunately. Sam is quite bloated now. I was able to massage it down a bit but no real change. Tonque went hangy for a little while. Not a good sign."

    Can you tell me again how the gut part links to the encephalitis? I have trouble w/ that or refer me to an article already written on here?
     
  15. amyrob

    amyrob Guest

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    Well, for sure that night we brought the wether in (Sam) we thought he was a gonner. We would have out him out of his misery saturday if he was still in so much pain BUT lo and behold the kitchen sink concoction Camille helped me work out is working. He can;t get all the way up to stand yet but he is crawling around on the mud room floor. Is eating hay but not really wanting to drink much. I have been drenching him as much as possible and he likes it but he won't let me get his head in a water pail even if it is warm and has molasses or gatorade mix. Seems like his vision is back and he responds to his name. Bloating WAY better. More rumen sounds. Did get excenel and am supporting his rumen activity as much as I can. Camille and I decided it was a goat polio when she heard him bawl whiler we were talking in the phone.

    Diamond, my little doeling is doing much better. She is jumping up on everything to try to get milk or grain. Have been letting her have some milk but no grain, of course. Will keep her in a few more days and try her outside for a few hours when I am here all day wednesday.

    Thanks for the support to all of you on and off the screen and phone and behind the scenes as well.
     
  16. Haglerfarm

    Haglerfarm New Member

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    Are you giving him any thiamin?
    Les
     
  17. amyrob

    amyrob Guest

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    Yes, sub q twice a day.
     
  18. amyrob

    amyrob Guest

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    GREAT NEWS. Sam got up walked around the mud room, actually gave me a bit of resistance when I tried to buckle each leg in the front, kicked his butt outside or I never would have been able to milk, and he stayed outside fighting back against none other that the queen V (Velvet) herself. Followed us out to the barn and went on in. I was basically in SHOCK. I still can't believe it. I hope it isn't the famous rally before the death march. What the hell-he's either gonna make it or he's not. It's up to him to decide now. I'll see how he is the next few days. I expect more each day. I actually thought he was starting to slip a bit for the worse last 2 days--he kept putting his head under the milk stand and he wouldn't budge. I guess he was just working up to it!!!!!!
     
  19. Secondairy

    Secondairy Member

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    That's good to hear - although I don't have any further suggestions, but I hope he makes a turn for the best!

    Kelly :)