There are always hints that there is a problem, a doe who labors and pushes standing up, a doe who gets up and down and lays down with great force like she is bouncing her belly to move kids, a doe who rubs and rubs her belly along a feeder or wall, try to positioning kids. A doe who pushes for more than 25 good hard pushes with no bubble, no nothing...don't wait get in there and see what is going on, it's usually a kid sideways, a kid with it's head up, a kid with one leg back, or a tail! Just fix the presentation way before she pushes all those kids into the birthcanal and you can't push them back. Dealing with labor and delivery like this, before you get a train wreck is why I have never had to C section a doe. Vicki _________________ Lonesome Doe Nubians est: 1986 Nubian Soaps lonesomedoenubians.com Taking deposits on 2008 kids and young milkers. Get put on the list for the $100 soaking wet buckling sale!