Judgement question

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by LMonty, Mar 20, 2008.

  1. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    Hopefully I will phrase this right-

    How do you determine when to assist a labor? I had a FF give birth Sun night. It was a large buckling for the little LaMancha. But, DH really got in there and pulled that baby out pretty quick, as soon as the afterbirth broke and we didnt see feet after only a couple of pushes. And I really mean a couple like only two or three. They were in the canal and coming but he didnt wait and went in pulled the fellow out. Both did fine and that little guy looks a week older than Vincas doelings born on Friday.

    In talking about it afterwards a friend and I wondered if Lydia would have done fine if she had had more time to loosen up and been able to push him out herself. DH is gunshy after Doras doeling died last month and he is NOT wanting to make the same mistake of waiting too long and letting them drown in there. (I dont know if it would have made a difference, but he seems to think he shouldnt have waited and is now ready to rush in.)

    So are there any tips you can suggest on how to decide to pull a baby? is there a specific time limit after the water breaks that you would wait? Or any other tips? I know that you have to go with what feels right based on each situation, but wondered what we could learn from this.
     
  2. Chaty

    Chaty New Member

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    Laura, I just go with what I feel is best at the time...yep gut is the best...
     

  3. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    I sometimes wonder, too. With Mercedes, her water broke and she pushed a little, but I wasn't seeing progress. Upon doing a pelvic. I could feel the kid, but she didn't seem dilated as much as I would have liked. DH pulled on the kid and we worked with her till she dilated more and we got the kid out. Maybe she would have been able to do it on her own, but I waited 30 minutes from when her water broke and didn't feel comfortable letting her go on without assistance. I'm glad we helped because the big buckling did fine right from the start, but smaller doeling needed our intervention to get her going. Kathie
     
  4. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    A first freshener needs to do some pushing, it's the first time all this cervic, pinbones etc., have moved out of the way and opened to have a kid. But I do insert my fingers after a couple of pushes to make sure the kid is in a good position, then I let her push. I don't pull kids out, the goal is to have good presentation when first pushing so she delivers them on her own. Now something wrong where you do have to move a kid, pull, than yes you likely will have to help them deliver all the kids, so don't stop.

    Tater had 3 doelings a few days ago. The first one, she pushed about 3 times, good strong contractions, 2nd freshener. She's a big girl. I put my fingers in and immediatly knew that I had front feet, but no teeth I had ears. I had to go in and pull the nose up, it would not stay up, so leaving the front legs out, I pulled the head up and out. Never have had that presentation before. The other two doelings came uneventfully, but I did check closer than I normally would have for 2nd and 3rd kids, who usually slip out in a bundle. vicki
     
  5. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    I guess I should clarify "pull' as firm downwards traction during contractions- not like hooking up the tractor to the leading edge and sending it backwards, LOL.

    Thanks so far guys. All tips and tricks appreciated. Good explanation Vicki, and congrats on triplet doelings! i hope they are wonderful!
     
  6. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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    I make the calls. If I am not seeing progress after a couple of good pushes I check things out. If baby is postition correctly I wait a bit more . Or I reposition the baby and help guide/pull it out. If I have feet showing I usually help tug if it does not poop out.

    I can only imagine your Hubbys hands are not feeling the same as my little ones so maybe he needs to be a bite more patient or let you check things out.

    The longer you do it the more you will know when to help and when to back off, I know it does not help much now.


    Patty
     
  7. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    Jo@LaudoDeumFarm New Member

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    I think what you have to watch for is noticeable progress. I've had some niggie FF's who have had labors on the slower end of the scale but they were making progress, and we could see that the normal birth things were happening. It was just slower than a multi-para. So from the time you notice labor, you want to see things moving in the right direction smoothly. What is bad is when stalled labors happen and things stop moving smoothly, or you notice lots of ineffective pushing, or weak pushing, or moms who get up and down and can't seem to settle down to push. Pretty soon your gut will be telling you that something is going on.
     
  8. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    It seems to me that even if the kids are positioned right, laid right, etc....if the doe doesn't pop them right out...why make her labor and labor? Causes more stress on dam and kids when you could just help her out and get it over with. I am not talking about getting rough here...but why not help if she's not getting it done easily herself? I have pulled kids in several cases when the doe probably could have done it alone....but why make her do it alone? If they move quickly enough I don't help but if 15 min. go by and no progress...I go in. Usually you cause more harm than good by waiting.
     
  9. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    This is the first year I really assisted in the births so not tons of experience. Had practice with humans.... :D the important thing is to make sure the doe is all the way dilated. It took one of mine many hours of labor (not pushing or only grunt pushes) There can be a very tiny lip that disappears with the first real hard push. Often before fully dilated you can feel a spot that is pulsing, when fully dilated this is gone. If you have been checking you can tell the difference. Dilated there is a slight ring you can feel, but no ridge. This also varies from doe to doe. If you are sure the kid is presenting properly and she gets it worked partly out; gentle, steady pressure can't hurt. Save "pulling" for situations you KNOW are desperate! Like 4-5 hard pushes with the kid partial out and NOT moving AT ALL with the push. Usually a big buckling ;) Ideally you will already be providing gentle traction with the hoofs grasped in one hand and gentle downward pressure on the muzzle/head. If you do have to pull do it WITH the contractions.

    Just my opinion.
     
  10. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    Appreciate all the replies.
     
  11. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    Jo@LaudoDeumFarm New Member

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    There are several reasons not to be too hasty to help when help isn't needed. As Vicki mentioned, ff's need to push to get their pelvis open. Also there are positive things going on for the kid as it moves along the birth canal, too. And there is always a chance of infection if you are having to go into the doe, plus antibiotics are always needed if you go into her uterus.

    There is a normal variation in labors and delivery too, so for one doe it might be normal to have the first kid out in 15 minutes might take another 20, or 5. It's not overly stressfull for the doe to have a normal labor, dairy does are made to give birth and make milk for babies. Anything over 30 minutes I would be worried about and most likely be assisting. When attending a labor, you should take the time when you notice labor and delivery and put it in your notes to get an idea of what the doe does.

    I hate the idea of pulling on the fragile newborn if not needed. We've had to take a couple to our chiro to help figure out what was wrong with a doe kid that had been slightly hurt during a slow breech delivery. She's much better now, thank goodness.