Johne's testing????

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by mill-valley, May 6, 2008.

  1. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    I am really curious why some of you think Johne's testing to be a waste of time. I understand that they can test negative for years and years and be positive all along...but that they also do not shed the bacteria while testing negative...so isn't it still worthwhile to know if your goat is shedding/not shedding? It's not contagious if they aren't shedding so even if they were to carry it, it wouldn't be spreading. Please correct me if I am wrong about this...but after having a goat test borderline positive I have tested every goat every year for Johne's.
     
  2. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I think it's a zebra test. One of those things you can test for and say you are negative and it is meaningless and misleading. The blood test isn't accurate period it is only part of testing, then you have to do fecal and it takes a really long time for the test to culture.

    The best way to buy goats free of Johnnes is to buy from those who keep their kids away from adult manure and adult goats period. Clean barns. Folks who have long lived healthy adult does.

    If you buy bottle kids who have had no contact from adult does manure, you really can't bring in Johnnes to your farm. Vicki
     

  3. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    I have heard that it can pass in utero in a small percentage of animals though...and also through milk and manure. Pasteurizing does not kill 100% of the bacteria either...so technically if you had an old doe shedding....you could be infecting your entire kid crop even if you separate and pasteurize all the milk.
     
  4. stacy adams

    stacy adams New Member

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    How would you know you had it? and if you never had it, your adults don't have it, then how do the kids get it if they hang around the adults? :/
     
  5. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Those small perecentage things are always lab done. Sure you can pass CAE from a buck to a doe in breeding, in the lab. Sure it's in snot and can be passed to another doe, in the lab. When you have diarrhea in your goat you don't think Johnnes (zerbra's) you think worms and cocci...it's not even enough of a percentage point to even know how much Johnnes is actually in goats. It's a non issue.

    Even in cattle there is not one answer, one test about Johnnes so anyone saying they know anything about Johnnes in goats is guessing.

    Has anyone had a goat test positive for Johnnes? I can tell you in the hundreds, and I mean high hundreds of goats I have tested to export to Mexico, abortion panel, TB, Brucilosis and Johnnes/CAE/CL on the legal ones..I have never seen a doe test positive for Johnnes on blood, never. And then someone has taken a doe who is postitive for Johnnes and then pasteurized her milk and tested it and it still has antibody for Johnnes in it? Or is this what someone said on the internet over and over and over?

    Even the Chrone's in people from Johnnes in cattle is speculation. I think if this link were true there would be alot more Chrones than there is, especially if pasteurization didn't kill it. One old cow on one farm with johnnes would infect hundreds of gallons of milk daily on a farm bulk tank, then dumped into thousands of gallons of milk in a bottling facility here, that would be sold into the Houston Area. Yet I am 50 and personally only know one person with Chrones? Makes little sense.

    It's zerbras. Vicki
     
  6. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    :biggrin I sat through 2hrs. of a lecture on Johnnes. From the main lab (University of Wisconsin- Dr. Elizabeth Manning gave the lecture) that does the testing....What all the information given boiled down to:
    Pasturization of milk is the best way to control and keeping the kids away from mature animals.
    Don't test anything under 18 months old.
    Fecal tests ran is the most reliable. It can take up to 6mo. of testing.

    Go to Johnes.org for further and indepth information and you will see why we think it's a waste of time. There's no EXACT information. And I agree with Vicki on the misleading info. when you see someone say they're Johnes free.
    Kaye
     
  7. Here is the Deal with johnes...it takes up to 18 months from the time of exposure to be able to show up on a test. That is why its pointless to test to under 18 month old animals.

    Fecal is really the only test that is worth the money. It can take up to 6 months to get a clear reading. Most of the time tho, its about 3 months. They will take it longer if they see something that might be a cause of alarm.

    Blood test, its great if you are wanting something to put in an ad saying your johnes free. Because, it will only test poz if they are shedding. Does not have to be the loose stools, but they shed about 6 months before that.

    Then if someone says they are Johnes free...look at what level they are at. There are 4 different levels of a free herd.

    Level 1...5 years of fecal tests all neg results. Blood test every 6 months, plus they have to vaccinate for Johnes.

    Level 2...1 year of Fecal testing, blood test once a year. Can keep up to 5% of herd that tested a weak Poz.

    Level 3...Blood test once a year. Keep up to 25% weak poz animals. Have to have written protocol on controlling Johnes. Does not mean they have to do it...just have it written down on what they are suppose to do.

    Level 4...Blood test once a year. Keep up to 50% weak poz, and up to 5% strong poz. Have to have written protocol, plus just have to every other year show a smaller number of Poz(weak and strong) animals in the herd.

    So, they can put johnes free but, be at a level 4 and still have over 50% of the herd test poz for Johnes.

    In cattle anymore people dont even bother with levels. They test random cows and hope for the best. They move calves away at birth, then they are not exposed to any animal that is over 24 months till they calve in as a FF. The bigger Dairies now are trucking them thousands of miles away to keep the distance greater from Poz animals. Biggest way to prevent ever getting Johnes...have a totally closed herd. No new bucks/bulls, only AI or use your own breeding males. And NEVER go to another farm with animals. Then you can over the wall and shoot all the deer that are on your place...since they carry it also.

    ken in MO
     
  8. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    All the goat folks I know also think testing goats for Johnnes is a waste of time and money. As for Chrones disease, everyting I've read about it indicates that it is an autoimmune disease. If anything in milk were to cause it, I'd think it would be the hormones given to cattle on commercial farms. From what I'm reading lately, autoimmune diseases are in the increase due to environmental pollutants, manipulation of our food sources and immunizations. Natural goat milk should be one of the healthiest things to consume. Kathie
     
  9. coso

    coso Guest

    I went to a goat conference and AI clinic at Lincoln University a month or so ago. Chris Murdock from Allied http://www.alliedmonitor.com/index.htm spoke on this. He said that they don't see hardly any positives in there test but have had some with goats. He went on to say that if they are not shedding the test maybe would be positive maybe wouldn't. If I remember right he said that the test was only about 50 to 60% accurate. Unless you had it widespread in a herd then it went up in the 70%. What kind of interested me was that you could send in blood from a sampling of goats if you thought you might be having a problem just to check. He also said that they had tested grocery store milk and 3 to 4% of the grocery store milk still had some Johnes bacteria in it, even after being pasteurized. He went on to say that they do believe there may be a link to Chrohnes in humans. But there was not enough research that has been done to back that supposition up. You have to remember though these are the guys that own and run the lab so I imagine they have there own agenda to a point also. I'll read the material I got from then again tonight and see if anything else strikes me.
     
  10. Hormones has nothing to do with if they get Johnes or not. Plain and simple. I have seen herds that did not vaccinate or use rBST, breeding hormones or anything. Still had a HIGH rate of highly poz animals. Then been on herds that used rBST and every hormone out there and passed fecal tests year after year.

    The major fact in passing Johnes on is the cleaniness of the place. If you calf or kid in dirty stalls. Then have animals that are positive you are going to keep that cycle going. Its like CAE...to a point. If you keep positive animals around then you are going to keep getting CAE positive animals when it comes time to test.

    Ken in MO
     
  11. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    Great info., Ken.
    Kaye
     
  12. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Yeah Kaye, think this thread needs to be moved to GK101 when it winds down, delete this post.

    V
     
  13. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    theres a threory that at least some autoimmune diseases may be caused by "second hand" virus infections. in otherwords, the virus gets into a cell. the way it reproduces is to hijack the cells reproductive machinery. in doing so, it leaves behind some parts of itself, little gene segment runs of amino acids. the cells with these viral gene segments function fairly normally, its just extra genes left behind the body reproduces. But, they may different enough from our normal self that the immune system recognizes that difference and attacks them as invaders.
    AFAIK its a theory that some medical researchers have proposed, but no proof yet. It does make sense. If the virus that causes Johhnes functions like this it sure would explain the loose association thats been found between Johnnes and Chrones.
     
  14. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Read a research on 3 chrones patients in CA those three had in common grocery store milk not raw milk or goat milk which I thought was interesting
     
  15. The whole idea that Johnes and Chrones are some how together just gets me. Since, with Johnes there has to be a introdution of the virus into the animal. With Chrones, there has to be introduction but also it can be genetic. With Johnes, it affects most of the time the Middle 1/3 colon. With Chrones, it can only affect the lower colon.

    There are alot of things that are alike with each other. But, Cornell years ago did the same surgery on cattle with Johnes as they do with people. The cattle came out of the visal signs of johnes for just about a month. Then they went right back to loosing weight and having the watery stools. So, for a little time they thought they had something, but like most research it was heaven for a minute.

    One of the big things that people dont think about with Johnes is that it can live in organic matter. IE...wood, dirt, shavings, ect... So, its hard to get anything clean once there has been a shedding animal in that area. That is why most dairies that want to get to that <5% rate will birth in a different barn and then raise all young stock away from the mature animals. They are finding also, that people can carry the virus on clothes and hands. So, that is one reason that the pork industry has youngest to oldest feeding order. Once you leave the farrowing house you can not go back in till you have shower and changed all clothes.

    Ken in MO
     
  16. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    I don't use theories, I use research and facts. Theories abound in the medical field and most don't have much credence. Theory says...goats will eat anything.?? HA! Breeders know that's false.
    Kaye
     
  17. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    So testing an animal under 18 mo. is not accurate? That is making me sick to my stomach thinking I culled one of the nicest does I ever had because she tested (blood) borderline positive as a yearling...she would have been about 15 months.
     
  18. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Someone else in your state did something similar. Bad information has a way of staying around much longer than good info. It's easy to think tests should be positive or negative that everything is in absolutes. But without knowing how to read the tests or why you are running the tests they can be meaningless. Vicki