I've got Dalmations ! Saanen /Sable question

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by Patty13637, Dec 26, 2007.

  1. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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    I have 2 doelings out of Saanen parents that have developed black spotd on there ears . It is fur not skin. how much color do they have to have before they go from Saanen to Sable ?


    Patty
     
  2. old dominion

    old dominion New Member

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    I think an inch and a quarter disqualifies them as Saanens. Use a quarter to test the spot. It is in the guidebook, but I would have to go look it up.

    Jolene
     

  3. Rambar Ranch

    Rambar Ranch New Member

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    If the color is only just a small bit of hair only I think they would be saanens still. The ears would be shaved for any show so their always going to look just white. But I had a doeling that only had a black line down her back and black lines under her eyes at birth but now at 9 months she has had brownish color huge spots all over her body now, and would no way pass as any saanen. You may just have to wait a little while till she matures more to see if she changes color any.
     
  4. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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    They have a bunch of spots about the size of a pencil eraser . I have no clue how to register them now. Sable is fine with me ...I would think these girls should carry the color gene???
     
  5. Rambar Ranch

    Rambar Ranch New Member

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    I went back to see what ADGA says about the requirements and this is what they list for breed character on the saanens.

    Saanen are white or light cream in color, with white preferred. Spots on the skin are not discriminated against. Small spots of color on the hair are allowable, but not desirable.
     
  6. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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    Boy now that leaves it open to each persons opinion on what small spots are .


    Thanks for looking that up.


    Patty
     
  7. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    Patty,

    They are usually referring to the body for spots, not the face and lower legs.

    How old are these kids? They may continue to develop color, but I would call them
    Saanens at this point. Kind of an advantage being a Saanen, because if you breed to a Sable buck and get color...Sables. If you breed to a Saanenand get White, Saanen. Either way , Saanen kids or Sable, you get to register as Saanen or Sable, without having to go into the Experimental book.

    Camille
     
  8. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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    The kids are about 6 months old. I need to check them better tomorrow for other "spots"

    Thanks , Patty
     
  9. old dominion

    old dominion New Member

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    In the Guidebook under Disqualifications for Saanens: Large (1-1/2 " [3.8 cm]or more in any direction) dark spot in hair.

    This is the guiding rule regardless of where the spot is located. With Saanens it is not uncommon to have numerous small spots clustered on the ears.

    My understanding is since ADGA recognizes Sables as a specific breed it is no different than breeding a Saanen to a Nubian, the breeds are different. If you breed a Saanen to a Saanen and get color you must select what breed all of the kids will be registered. If you register one kid from a mating as Sable the white kids can not be registered Saanen. Since we have two thoughts on the subject it would be best to contact ADGA to clarify.
     
  10. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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    Jolene thanks . I was of the understanding saanen to saanen breeding resulting in 1 saanen offspring and 1 colored {sable} that each kid would be registered according to color. It really would be no different than this year getting a white kid then repeating the breeding the next year and getting a sable . Guess I will have to look further into it .

    Thanks again . Patty
     
  11. old dominion

    old dominion New Member

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    I will find a reference source. I can find it on lots of information about it on personal websites. You have my curiosity up now.
     
  12. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    Hi Jolene,

    Saw your post to Saanen Talk. Regarding two different colored kids from the same doe, a friend of mine had this happen to her sable doe two years ago. She registered the colored doeling Sable, and the white doeling Saanen. Sent the paperwork all in at the same time and ADGA knew it was from the same mating and the same doe.

    So I would say that she did it correctly, or else ADGA would have sent the paperwork back.

    Camille
     
  13. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    It just occurred to me that when you mention that it is up to the breeder to choose which book the kids should to into, this would be for the Experimental kids...

    (What you get when a Sable to Saanen or Sable to Sable breeding results in a white kid), and then, yes, you would choose if they are going to be registered Saanen experimental (you plan to breed up to an American Saanen) or Sable Experimental (you plan to breed up to an American Sable).

    Hopefully this helps clear up some of the confusion... :sigh I really wish that they had just let the
    colored Saanens into the regular herdbook, this way folks would still be keeping the best animals regardless of color.

    I wonder how many Toggs can't be registered because of incorrect color/markings? Hmmm.

    Camille
     
  14. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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    It just seems so silly to me that if sables come from white "saanen" parents and can be registered sable why is it that a white kid from a sable cannot be registered saanen . Its not experimental for gosh sakes its a saanen. The only difference is color its not like one has 2 heads !

    Patty
     
  15. Rambar Ranch

    Rambar Ranch New Member

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    I'm with you on this one Patty. I don't know who was on the committee when they set teh standards for Sables but it doesn't make sense one bit to me either. Why they can go one way with no problems but can't go back is ridiculous. Their not totally different breeds like Alpine to Saanen. Sables are still Saanens but with color. I hope they go back and revisit this quest in the near future.

    Ray
     
  16. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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    That would be great . I actually want Sable babies. My girls spend most of the winter inside so come spring we have to sunblock there udders ...what a pain in the butt. I also like the not knowing what colors I may get . I love my white girls but geesh ya know every kiddin what your going to get .

    Patty
     
  17. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I was :) It's because it identifies carriers for you. You know if you use a white sable buck that he does carry color, and so does his white ancestors. Where if a sable to sable breeding white kid is simply put into saanen herdbooks, it buries her sable history, which is what has been done for generations to the detriment of your breed. Honestly the white sibiling that will go saanen should have a code that goes with her to state she had a sable sibling.

    If instead of floundering in recorded grade for decades, if Sables had been given a herd book when the computer was capable of doing it, think of the thousands of animals killed needlessly and how much further into this process of identifying the saanens who carry color you all would be. Vicki
     
  18. old dominion

    old dominion New Member

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    After posting to Saanen Talk, Sable Talk, and every District list at Yahoo Groups I know lots of people look at this in many ways. I did email ADGA, L Berry, D Palmer, and the best "goat stuff" researcher I know. After working in State government for years I know anything is open for interpretation. Wouldn't a nice clear chart be great for people like me.
     
  19. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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  20. old dominion

    old dominion New Member

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    D Palmer emailed me and confirmed this is correct. The great thing about goats is that you learn something everyday!

    Saanen -x- Saanen = 1) Any White Kids (register as Saanen), 2) Any Colored Kids (register as Sables).

    Saanen -x- Sable = 1) Any White Kids (register as Experimental), 2) Any
    Colored Kids (register as Sables).

    Sable -x- Sable = 1) Any White Kids (register as Experimental) 2) Any
    Colored Kids (register as Sables).

    Jolene