Improving the LaMancha breed

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by Feral Nature, Nov 12, 2007.

  1. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

    1,278
    0
    0
    Something Vicki said in the Obie thread prompted me to create this post. Vicki, I think you said something about "the ADGA judges withholding 1st place ribbons in the Oberhasli shows" and you expressing a desire to improve the LaManchas or something like that.

    I was wondering what are the goals for some of you LaMancha breeders out there and opinions of those even with other breeds. What do you see as a weakness in the breed overall, strengths? What can be improved upon? What is a given within the breed? What needs to be whatched for and culled heavily for.

    What is the ideal lamancha doe and buck? What exactly is the difference between "old style" and new.

    I am breeding 50% recorded LM grades to a reg. LM buckling. Those resulting doelings will be 75% and I am already considering breeding season for them next fall. My 2009 doelings will be 87.5% and that is reg. American if I am not mistaken....I can only imagine that they will be far removed in style from the original LM I have started with, hopefully not losing production/capacity/hardiness in the process.

    So what is on the horizon for LaManchas?
     
  2. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    The goals for my LaMancha herd are simple; to be as competitive as my Nubian herd. They have to milk as well, show as well, appraise as well and most importantly, they must produce offspring as good as or better than they are themselves. The Nubians were here first and are my first (and true) love so the LaManchas have a lot to live up to!

    My LaManchas are well balanced animals that are tall, long and angular with a long, flat bone pattern. They excel in general appearance and have pretty mammaries that milk! :D An easy to get along with attitude is a must, but they do tend to boss the Nubians around. Gopher ears only here. :D

    I think the LaMancha breed as a group needs to work on feet problems as well as dairy character. I see way too many LaManchas with round bones and excess fleshing.

    I do really enjoy our LaManchas. They are so smart... almost too smart for their own good!

    Sara
     

  3. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

    1,278
    0
    0
    Sara, with you having the Nubians first, and loving them, are you possibly breeding Lamanchas to look like earless Nubians? Is that the right direction? Mine look VERY different than Nubians and I'm not talking ears.

    I do agree with the feet problems. if I could correct one thing, it would be feet. Hooves and feet. Mine have soft hooves that actually wiggle like rubber in your hands. I have seen it in 3 generations now. I am trying different nutrition/management ideas to correct this. My Boer and MiniManchas have hard hooves.

    I would put my LM girls against Nubians anytime for willingness to milk, length of lactation, capacity etc. They have udder attachement issues but I am working on that. Don't see how any breed could out milk a Lamancha pound per pound..really I don't.
     
  4. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    0
    0
    Yeah what Sara said :) Our LaManchas started with the old LonDuff herd from Utah that ended up north of me in Texas, utility does that we milked on the dairy. Then a friend of mine died and we brokered his herd and brought in some old Chickory Showman stuff. I was hooked then, and went after Yazz who bred Chickory Showman stuff and the Silva's stuff to get size. And yes everyone said we were just breeding Nubians with LaMancha ears. But I am not a fan of ultra feminine or short goats. Old style is short more refined goats.

    Out here most LaManchas can be faulted for feet and legs mostly, but utility udders and general appearance were eaiser to fix in LaManchas more so than Nubians were for me.

    Spend the winter cruising websites, pick out animals over and over who you like, what you will find is that they have common ancestors...go after those ancestors. Other than a few crazy buck purchases :) I have never spent alot of money buying goats because I don't go after the breeder of name brand, I buy from someone breeding name brand :)

    When I started over in Nubians in 2001, that is exactly what I did...I went after a certain look which is thrown by certain bloodlines. But none few are bloodlines from the breeder themselves. Vicki
     
  5. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    My LaManchas need to live up to my Nubians plain and simple. I have always bred the type of Nubian that I prefer and that I want to look at in my barn. I always say I won't milk an ugly goat (especially from behind ;) ) The same holds true for my LaManchas. I don't like short, fat Nubians any more than I like short, fat LaManchas. I love long, tall, MILKY goats. My Nubians are just that and I breed the same in my LaManchas. I know some LaMancha breeders will disagree with me, but I don't like short LaManchas. Ours are every bit as tall as their Nubian herdmates. In fact, Cazillion is going to rival Santa Cruz for the title of the tallest goat in the barn this year... and she isn't even three! :lol

    My LaManchas have an incredible will to milk, but honestly so do my Nubians. I do realize that some of my Nubians are the exception to the rule when it comes to milk but in my herd it's the norm.

    Just my opinion.

    Sara
     
  6. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife New Member

    1,008
    0
    0
    "Sara, with you having the Nubians first, and loving them, are you possibly breeding Lamanchas to look like earless Nubians? Is that the right direction? Mine look VERY different than Nubians and I'm not talking ears."

    This is a debate that has been raging for years and wont be going away any time soon--basically you will find it under 'old style VS new style" Generally those looking for taller, longer are looking new style, I think. The older are shorter, and have a much more easily distinguishable face than new style, broader, eyes placed somehwat differently. You can see both fairly well represented in our herd. We have Zelda, long, tall, great bones, etc. Slap a roman nose and ears on her and you get a respectable nubian. Then there is Tea Rose...short, solid, broad head, with a very different face than Zelda. Both milk well, both have wonderful temperaments both show and appraise pretty well. BUt two very different types. And then we have everything inbetween.

    "I have always bred the type of Nubian that I prefer and that I want to look at in my barn."

    I think that this is true of any breeder no matter what the breed. I am still figuring ourt exactly what I want. I know it when I see it, both in teh ring and in my barn, and I know when I dont. My goal is to get good enough to be able to better define it and breed for it. I am happy that my goats ARE good goats but even with a barn full of pretty respectable animals (if I do say so myself ;) ) I still have my favorites and woudl love to fill the barn with more of them. (Diane specifically my faves in my barn are Nyla and Dorie :) ) So I am looking for that elsewhere and talkingtalkingtalking to breeders who have what I like and branching out with stock from them.
     
  7. Oregonian Chick

    Oregonian Chick New Member

    91
    0
    0
    I am breeding for a slightly taller more dairy old style doe:-D. I looove them old style LaManchas although I think new style is pretty also. I just prefer my smaller sized LaManchas because to me they are not supposed to be as big as a saanen or a nubian is but that just me. My girls I like to be in the 130-140 pound range with the bucks being 160-180 pounds. Easy enough for me to handle without worrying about them over powering me easy.

    Right now I am still in the learning curve stage of breeding for what I want and working on getting my herd there. I know lots of people don't like short cobby LaManchas but I like that :). Although I want my girls more dairy and a little bit taller. I am also breeding for easy to milk does (easy to handle, easy to milk, lets milk down well, good size teats). If I don't like hand milking them then they are gone no matter how beautiful they are. That is one thing I have decided for sure in my herd that is one thing I will be culling for. I have milked some does who show BEAUTIFULLY in the ring but when you have to milk them LORD HAVE MERCY! I don't want that with my girls:).

    Ok so I have rambled enough...thats just a bit of what I am wanting.

    Justine
     
  8. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

    1,278
    0
    0
    Well LeeAnne and Katie just saw my herd last weekend. My does and doelings are all related. All going back to one pair, a doe "Perceverance"(deceased) and buck "Data"(sold). The came from a dairy and by report was told the doe came from a buck call "Heath" (dead) and Data was the grandson of "Fairwoods Mycrochips Icon". But papers never followed.

    So now 5 daughters from this "union" and 4 granddaughters per Kelton. So 9 LM in the one family.

    My question to LA and katie, since my herd is sort of uniform per genetics, what was the most striking BAD feature you saw (be cruel) and what was the best feature. Does? Doelings? We discussed some of this but I can't remember it all.

    I am as barn blind as they come, I don't show and depend on those of yall who do to help me go in the right direction.

    Example, the doe I was going to sell was liked by LA/katie and the doe "I love" did not impress (speaking of Agnes the black one and then Spice the small built brown feminine one in that order).
     
  9. Tricia

    Tricia New Member

    188
    0
    0
    My perfect LaMancha would have Ober EARS! :lol I love the breed, but I love those communicative ears!
     
  10. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

    1,278
    0
    0
    Me, my DH and others always comment on how very expressive a LaMancha's eyes are. Perhaps it's the lack of expression by ears that either forces the LM goat to be more expressive with it's eyes or perhaps we as humans assign more expression to a goat who cannot signal with it's ears. But honestly, LM do seem to have almost human expression in their eyes(ok i know all goats do)...but so much focus has to go into reading a goats face and without the "distraction" of the ears, those LM faces tell so much. I know i have commented before about my LM and those "faces" they make....usually sad or hopeful faces with no ears to get in the way of it.
     
  11. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

    1,837
    0
    0
    :biggrin Me too, Tricia!! I absolutely LOVE the "Arabian" (for lack of a better term) ears on the Obies. The tips actually curve inward toward the center of the head. All but one of mine have them and I'd like to figure out how to get them on my Toggs without cross-breeding. ;)
    Kaye
     
  12. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

    298
    0
    0
    As a newly re-aquired La Mancha owner, ;) what are the "old style" qualities and the "new style" qualities? When did the new style come about? I have my 5 year old doe. Is she "old" or "new"? :lol I do know from visiting a local breeder that I loved the little heart-shaped heads of some of her goats! Mine don't have small, heartshaped heads.
     
  13. Harmony Goats

    Harmony Goats New Member

    20
    0
    0
    I know this is an old thread but since it is interesting I just wanted to comment. My does are more of the old style. Where I live in northern Arkansas but I mainly show them in Missouri. There are mainly 2 types of lamanchas where I show. The new tall, long,and skinny style and the little bit smaller wider version. With my lamanchas it is hard to win against the other styles but they are very nice and they milk a lot. Although there is really no other style that I like I just like the old style lamanchas which is hard to come by.
     
  14. Doc

    Doc New Member

    23
    0
    0
    Size. Too many "mini" breeders on the west coast and some full-size breeders have started pushing what would (SHOULD) have been culls into the mini-market. You see the ads "small framed lamancha, would be great as mini breeder". Then these lamanchas get bred to a LM buck and the saga continues. Average size has dropped to 125, and a 125 lb milker isn't going to give you a long lactation. Gak. I have old style bloodlines, and have been slowing injecting some new blood into them. My girls now average 140 with a couple over 150. Big sturdy girls that can go the distance.
     
  15. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

    2,730
    0
    0
    My NOA La Mancha, Blossom has the best udder of any doe I've owned. She's one of the bigger type La Manchas and is a champion. Her weakness is her rear feet. Her daughter, Buttercup is half Nubian and is larger than my purebred Nubians of the same age - feet improved, but doesn't have mom's udder. Blossom's granddaughter out of my Snubian doe is a long, tall doeling with nice feet. We'll be seeing her udder this spring. I'm really hoping she has an udder like Blossom's.
     
  16. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

    1,837
    0
    0
    :biggrin My 2 cents worth....this is where LA comes in very handy!!! Cut off the head of the goat and color them all white....get the correct general appearance,dairy character, body capacity, mammary...then work on breed character. If your genetics line up for large goats...you're management will produce large goats. If genetics for the shorter, stouter...you will get that.
    Kaye
     
  17. Aja-Sammati

    Aja-Sammati Active Member

    1,004
    0
    36
    No munchies here...yet!...but I found this is sooo true with my Nubians. I thought I needed to breed for taller, bigger bodied does. But just through management my doelings are going to be bigger than their dam's. The goats that other people managed for the longest are my smaller does- curse of no parasite prevention in the South! It is good I am not worried as much about size now- I more important fish to fry in my herd :lol

    I look at a lot of La Manchas, and I have noticed that some doelings that I would cull in my nubes for being way too small & refined turn out to be big, deep, lovely milkers when they are 4 & 5. Different lines at work?
     
  18. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife New Member

    1,008
    0
    0
    "some doelings that I would cull in my nubes for being way too small & refined turn out to be big, deep, lovely milkers when they are 4 & 5. Different lines at work?"

    And a lot of LM lines tend to be quite slow to mature. We had one doe, in fact, that we were told at her appraisal as a FF "what an...interesting...doe."

    ah...what does THAT mean?!

    Then the appraiser went on to say "this is one of those does that will take a good few years for you to see if she will be fabulous or a flop...I hope to get to see her again when she is 5 and see how she turns out!"

    (so far, 2 yrs later, I am pretty sure she is heading the way of fabulous :) )
     
  19. Harmony Goats

    Harmony Goats New Member

    20
    0
    0
    My does are quick to mature. Right now my yearlings which will be two year olds are 120-135 the dry ones and the one that was a yearling milker is about 165. They are all beautiful they are getting tall. The appraiser last year(Steve Richter) said that my yearling milker was a beautiful yearling(VV+E) and she was just a week fresh she is also a SG but he really liked her. I have only had 2 really short lamanchas one was a 75% lm and 25% A and the other a third gen lamancha and they are about 27 in tall.