Going in on a doe... ??

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by LynninTX, Jan 7, 2008.

  1. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    OK was just reading the last pg of Stacy's post... and panicking... though Ginger is NOT pushing so I should just relax.. but it has me realizing I do NOT go in far enough...

    HOW do you go in that far? I can make it ALMOST to my elbow... but that is all... just can't seem to get deeper... fall about 1-1 1/2" short of my elbow even lubed and really pushing...

    My arms and hands are NOT small.. I have long arms too... so wondering in INCHES how far roughly do you need to go in to be sure?

    My dd's hands are even bigger than mine... her hands are as big as her dad's and he has big man hands... she is a big girl too... close to 5'10"...

    So it would not help to have her go in instead...

    just really getting concerned about doing this properly....
     
  2. Meshale

    Meshale New Member

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    If your doe is not pushing...give her time...and even pushing you want to give her a few really good pushes..and see if anyhting is in the canal...I have only had to go in up to my elbow once..and that was to push a kid back and get his chin up.......If i doe would continue to push for 30 mins and no baby and i couldn't feel anything my vet would be getting a call.....I am lucky that she is close and a good friend!*S*
     

  3. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    I don't have a decent vet...

    And I am not *really* worried about Ginger since she is not pushing or running a fever.... but I do want to be more knowledgable next time...

    And I do for my own peace of mind check each doe.... but if I am not doing it effectively... I want to change that.
     
  4. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

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    I have had to go in up to my elbow several times. Three times last year. Twice to correct the same malpresentation with the back against the cervix. I would just go in and find legs and hope they were the right ones, it was difficult but always worked out. One time I went in looking for an additional kid that was not there. I kept trying to find the elusive uterine horns that I can never find. But I did not feel a kid and i was up to my elbow digging around so figured there wasn't another one. I think it's just one of those things that the more you have your arm elbow deep in the back of a goat, the more at home you are there.
     
  5. Meshale

    Meshale New Member

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    This is just me, but i would never go "in" on a doe unless i thought there was a problem.....I will "bump" my does after they kid just to see if i feel anybody else in there...but most of the time i have no real problems,,,But sometimes weird stuff just happens..that is for sure!
     
  6. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    Lynn, I had the same reaction... up to your elbow??? :help2
    I have never had to go in very far (just far enough to find a nose on feet :D), although I know if we stay in goats it is only a matter of time until I'll need to know how.

    So help... I've got no vet yet so I am on my own... What do you feel for, what do the "horns" feel like, how do you "sweep" - same basic questions as already mentioned.
     
  7. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    One of these days you eventually will have to go in. The more you do it...the better you get at it. LOL...I could bump a doe all day long and not feel a kid. I just can't get the hang of it and have no problem going in. Course I've had a whole lot more time to learn.

    I guess the deepest I've been was pass my elbow in an Obie looking for a 3rd kid that I had felt while arranging the 2nd. I swear the kid's front feet were sticking out the dam's nose! But, I found her way up front, and down low. Could just get a hold on her front feet. I just went and measured and it was about 18-19 inches. This was a short bodied doe so it can be lots further. LOTS OF LUBE and Preperation-H when I was through and a bit of banamine for pain. Doe did great.
    Kaye
     
  8. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    Fingernails as short as you can stand!! You find the uterine wall-left or right and gently follow it foreward and down,gently moving the placenta as you go. It will feel like a water balloon full of guts. Go as far forward as you can. Picture the uterine horns in your mind *Y* and gently feel for these. If you come upon a place that seems stuck...don't force through it, you'll tear the *buttons* from the wall. Make sure if the doe is a deep bodied doe, you go to the bottom of the uterus. I Pity you Sara and Vicki !! Learn to be patient and gentle. Think of how you'd feel with someone ramming your insides. Plus the fact you can tear the uterus.

    Now, ND...I don't have a clue!!! I just have a :really moment at being able to get my hand and arm in. Maybe a ND breeder can explain that one.??
    Kaye
     
  9. Beverrlly

    Beverrlly New Member

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    :yeahthat
    Yes--please an ND breeder! I'm scared to death I'd rip some of my little does in half!!
    :help
     
  10. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I have had to fish up to my elbow for the leg or head to pull a kid around, but for checking if she is empty, I don't go in that far. Like I was telling lynn on the phone during this, I pull up on the does belly, pushing the uterus to me, using my knee, or whatever I have to, to pull both horns of the uterus towards me.

    Bumping, or not checking will come back to haunt you one day! I don't know how you go in and go to sleep not knowing if she ate or she passed the placenta, or if there is one more kid in there or not...I worry, and I am back out doing a pelvic. And I would invite you over anytime you like to show me the bumping technique on Shoofly, Babbette, Birdy, BND or Mica, all over 200 pounds and your arms can't even get around them!

    This is all just good management technique. Checking for presentation as the doe pushes her 5th time, can you feel feet and teeth? Making sure the head progresses down and does not go back as she continues to push...I am not talking invasive stuff here. Then as she has one kid, does she go right back into pushing? IF not a simple insertion of several of your fingers will make her push against your hand to bring another kid down. Is that kid in good presentation? And now that she is through, is there any other placentas? Any other kids? Vicki
     
  11. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife New Member

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    "IF not a simple insertion of several of your fingers will make her push against your hand to bring another kid down. "

    Hey, Vicki, you could be a midwife! Wanna come assist me? :)
     
  12. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

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    I just happened across my pic of Sugar's March 2207 delivery of live twin doelings. She laborered for too long and started acying mildly distressed and when I checked, the first kid had her back flush against the cervix and had not yet even entered the birth canal. It took everything I had to straighten that kid out and get it in the birth canal, not knowing if I had two front legs (or what???) The second kid was correctly positioned but the doe was tired so I helped. I went in and really checked well for a third kid as she was quite large and also so tired. I would not be surprised if she was a bit overdue. Look at that ripe goat! Happy ending, we still have the twins and they are expecting!

    If this pic is too gross, one of us can delete it :D I'm just getting excited about kidding season!!!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Karen Bailey

    Karen Bailey New Member

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    I am small (5'0"), my does are big deep bodied Nubians. The last time I had to go in was with a doe who was in labor and pushing hard, but nothing was happening for about 20 minutes, although she was fully dilated. I did a check, and felt nothing anywhere near the birthing canal. I had to go in further, and at the far end of my reach I finally felt two back hooves. I guided them out and found that the kid had died of a detached placenta and was delivered with the umbilical cord still attached and most of the placenta still attached to that. The kid was so far down in there that I wonder if without help the doe would have been able to expel him.

    My neighbor who always calls me to help when her goats kid bought some shoulder length OB gloves from her vet for me. At first I was afraid I would not be able to feel as well with them on, but not only was I able to identify everything I encountered in there, but when I was done, there was no clean up to do beside rolling them up to throw away. My hand didn't smell like birthing fluids for the rest of the day, and I didn't get the rash that usually shows up on the back of my hand after being in contact with the birthing goo. I have decided to buy some more from Jeffers when my current supply runs out, and always have them on hand.
     
  14. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Well yes I haven't had to go in on a ND but have on Mini's and have gone in up to the elbow. I can't bump and know anything either.
     
  15. stacy adams

    stacy adams New Member

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    Adding to this.. The vet had told me that when checking for retained kids you go in like Kaye said, nice and slow and lubed up. OB gloves would be nice too. Anyway, he goes in sort of aiming to the right and until he feels the uterine wall and then sort of 'sweeps' downward to the other side. Looking at the does abdomen, it's large, and you want to check it all.

    Another nifty thing he showed me :really was if you palpate the area at the bottom of the 'triangle' that makes the flank and slightly forward, if you push in with your fingers (like your trying to touch your fingers together) and move 'em around (now to feel), he had me feel a hard object where no hard object should be. It was the head.

    I'm going to see if they will get me a copy of her X-Ray, and then see if I can post it
     
  16. Thermopkt

    Thermopkt New Member

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    Would it be possible to put this in GK 101?
     
  17. DostThouHaveMilk

    DostThouHaveMilk New Member

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    The furthest I have had to go into a doe thus far was I think up to my wrist. I've been up to my armpit palping a bred cow though...lol
    So far, our kidding issues with goats were resolved witout having to shove someone all the way back in and repositioning.
    We lost a couple of kids early on that if I had known what I was doing and actually assisted we probably could have saved. I did lose a triplet kid in a rough delivery. Danielle's two bucks kids both tried to come out at once. Dad pushed one back far enough for the other to deliver. I was pretty sure I had bumped a third kid (we didn't get triplets really back then), but she didn't continue laboring like she normally did so I assumed I was wrong. She delivered a dead doeling 45 minutes after the first two arrived. That is a case where I probably should have gone in, but didn't realize it at the time.
    I wasn't here for the nightmare kidding last year with Star Baby that resulted in the vet being called in for the first time in 9-10 years of kiddings. Haven't lost any does during labor.
    I bump goats. It is what I am used to with cows (I have better luck finding a bred cow by buping than by rectal palping) and I have adjusted it to goats that are much smaller and easier to man handle..lol. I'm sensitive to the sensations created and am pretty good at distinguishing between rumen and kid(s). I also annoy the heck of does in labor though, because everytime you bump them you get their contractions going again.

    Having to assist animals delivering is not something we run into much here. In the rare case a cow has a presentation that they cannot deliver (head pinned below the pelvis, calf in a twisted uterus, etc). We have reliable large animal vets in this area. And more than one. This is after we have tried ourselves.
    For the most part though our cows are Jerseys and Jersey crosses, so no problem calving.
    Our goats, despite what seems to lack in our management departments, are usually easy kidders.

    I worry about the day I will have to really rearrange a delivery and actually go in further than my wrist...lol
    It certainly doesn't make me quesy which is a start...lol
     
  18. stacy adams

    stacy adams New Member

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    I would like to add a thought here.. Vicki has always said that if you look at the size of your hands/arms, they are (in most cases) smaller than the kid you are trying to get out. After losing my doe, I've realized that it's not worth the 'tiptoeing' the wondering and the worry, and it sure isn't worth the pain and heartache. Get in there! & get it done! Now, re-arranging is a whole 'nother topic I'd like to start.
    Be brave!
     
  19. coso

    coso Guest

    I have seen my wife in past her elbow on a doe before. The doe had two already out and was pushing on a third pretty hard. I let her push about 20 min and got my wife to go in. Her arms are a lot smaller then mine, and therefore easier on the doe. The kid was down deep and was balled up with his back toward us. Sherri turned him around and brought him out. I've been up to almost my elbow before, but my forearms get big quick right before my elbow and I always feel like I'm hurting them. My wife could go all the way to her shoulder and still not hurt them as bad as I would. If she's around I let her do it.
     
  20. Ashley

    Ashley New Member

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    This stuff does intimidate me. I would be worried about going in like that. I kind of have big forearms for a girl. My mom does too, (and she's little) I call her popeye arms LOL, so I get it from her. I just can't imagine being able to go in the far! I did the bumping thing and it worked for the two does I did it on. I could feel something in one, but it wasn't reallly that hard, and it was the placenta. Then I felt nothing after she passed that. Didn't feel anything on my nubian after her twins and passed placenta, and there was nothing left. But I don't have 200 lb does. Penny is a scant 110 lbs., the other doe was a little lamancha. I have this silly picture of my ripping the uterus or something.

    I can't wait for babies. :biggrin