[wheytogosaanens]

Okay, I am posting this for someone new, who couldn't figure out how to start a new post.

Lori is a 3 y.o. nubian that I milked through last year and she decided she was done milking all of a sudden and seemed to go off feed. Watched her. Temp has been 98-99, was 101 once. Wormed her ivermectin ~ 3 wks apart. I did penicillin for about 5 days and she seemed a lot better. Thought maybe she had a pneumonia as she did have some labored breathing and a mildly crusty nose. Still not eating well. I have a coat on her.
One day, she seemed really bloated and I gave her oil w/ milk and vinegar that had worked well on a llama that a goat raiser suggested. Massaged her a bunch and got some BIG, SMELLY burps out of her. Seemed better for a few days but still not real energetic and isn't fighting to get into the hay feeder like usual.

OK, today, hubby comes in and says her jaw is swollen. Ah-ha-I had read that in my goat health handbook. So, this am I mixed up some Carmalax(acid reducer and mild antacid) and drenched her. She spit out a few wads of cud. Burped some. I also balled up a bunch of baking soda and shoved them in her mouth.
Gave her B Complex IM tonight. Talked w/ Camille in N. Idaho for awhile adn she suggested I put up a post here.

So, now what? I am going to try to get a poop sample to the vet to evaluate her for worms.

She is slowly losing weight, This am her eyes had a bluish line of **** along the lower lash. I tried to check her teeth but she wasn'y too cooperative. Poop is harder, smaller little pieces that aren't necessarily formed and as big as usual. Darker in color, too. Constipated?

She spit out her cud and VOILA-jaw improved. It was just an inch or so past the crease in her mouth. Eyes and gums are still pink. Did drink some hot water for me earlier. Will keep giving her some. She is in the mud room getting warm. Temp is 99.7 Gave her 10 cc Vit B complex IM.


All suggestions are WELCOME.

THIS IS AN ADDENDUM FROM CAMILLE
When Amy wormed this doe, (150 lbs), she used the horse paste ivermectin at the horse dosage rate...in other words, turned the dial to 150 lbs. The tube was also at least a year expired (I don't think this would make too much difference. ) She went off feed and stopped making milk before she was wormed.
I had Amy take the temp of another goat while we were on the phone last night, and she had a temp of 101.7 (about 26 degrees last night, and she was outside). The sick goat had been in the mud room all day with a coat on and her temp was 98.7....has been low for almost a month. What do you all make of this?
Amy did say that she seems to feel better after baking soda (she has had mild bloat a couple of times). She had 1 day of brief diarrhea at the beginning of this....
Camille

 

[goatkid]

I've never had a goat with these exact symptoms, so don't know for sure what it is. The two things that come to mind for me are worms or hardware disease, though I don't know if they would cause the low temperature. First of all, I'd be tempted to buy a new thermometer. While her temperature is obviously lower than the other doe's both may be registering lower than they actually are. By the time a doe's temperature is that low, she's usually not surviving as long as this doe has without the proper treatment. I would seriously consider taking both the goat and a fecal sample to the vet. She may very well need blood work and an Xray of her stomach to get to the bottom of this. If the problem is worms, she needs the proper dose of the wormer being used in your area. Good luck.

 

[Ashley]

The only thing that caught my eye was that the stool was dark, and that can mean blood. Perhaps she is bleeding out in her colon for some reason. Sorry, not much help.

Did they take everything out of her diet but hay?

 

[Gabe]

Sound like some sort of toxic to me. Could she have eaten something? Swollen jaw line comes from liver failure. Bluish color of the eye membrane let me think she is getting something that is poisoning her.

 

[Bella Star]

Re-evaluate the doe and stop everything ! (for now)

What is her temp ? What color is her gums ? How much does she approx weigh ? Is she eating ?drinking ? laying? standing? Depressed with head down? haunched up ? Overall condition of fur,looks ? Pee? poop ?
Is her swollen jar from a cudd or food that she is holding in her mouth ? This could be from a sore mouth from all the stuff that you have poked in her mouth and made it sore by prying her mouth open .My goats burps stink. Why did you give pennicilling for ? you suspect ? Is there anything you suspect on this doe or has the other goats had anything ? any eye problems today ?

 

[Bella Star]

Have you read about KETOSIS as this can happen to a lactating doe also, its under Goat keeping 101
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=31.0

 

[wheytogosaanens]

I am responding for Amy, at least on some of the questions that she has described for me. (She has to jump on-line, dialup, and then get off to free up the phone
for calls).
Temp was 98.7. Sometimes 99. Gums and eyelids are pink. 150 lbs, generally, probably 10 lbs. less now, as she explained, she is losing weight.
She is not as eager to eat...mildly depressed would be a good description. Walks around, but no energy, no spark. Eyes are not dull, but not bright.
Head not down, not hunched. So she does eat, just not as much. Poop are hard and dry (Iwould say dehydrated from this).
Last night she offered her hot water and she drank a fair amount (Amy, you will have to tell them how much).
The swollen jaw was apparently just her cud (please read the original post...a lot of these questions were answered in it).

Her other goats are healthy. Amy bought Velvet from me in May (doe in milk) and brought her over to be bred 10 days ago. Velvet looks great, has grown,
(2 year old), is milking nicely, bright-eyed and bushy tailed. I don't know all of the details of her management--I know the does get alfalfa free choice and
grain on the stand.

P.S. She is in Eastern Montana.

 

[Bella Star]

I read the first post but seems that a lot has been give to the doe like penicillin and all that soda stuff. If the doe is not giving milk she does not need as much grain or none and she is not going to eat as much as when producing milk. Her poop may be dry and smaller due to the stuff thats been given to her,she may have a sore mouth due to being forced open and intake of hay and soda stuff, she may not be as thirsty as producing milk,she may be depressed as she produced milk for a long season and now nothing. Nubies(to me) are sometimes neurotic and I hope somebody with Nubies answer you . Have you read http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=21.msg49#msg49 Does she have any of these symptoms ? I am just thinking as I dont know, just guessing and suggesting stuff.
How is her udder ?

 

[ellie]

A goat's temp normally is 102. Any low temp like this one, is a dead give away that it is metabolic, not parasites...well almost always. Without actuially being there, it's hard to predict, but if it was me I'd be giving the doe CMPK and take her off grain, onto good alfalfa, and monitor temp. Read about hypocalcemia...is ther an article here/??? for sure on http://saanendoah.com

My book also has an aritcle about hypocalcemia, if you have that.
Good luck!

 

[wheytogosaanens]

Amy, we need you to answer some of these questions....How is her udder?

At this point, giving some Nutridrench, or Magic (homemade energy recipe) may not be a bad idea. Does her breathe smell weird when she isn't belching?
Kind of sicky sweet? Like a diabetic...(Amy is in the HealthCare field). that would be Ketosis, which is what the above will help with.

Magic:
1/4 cup corn oil
1/4 cup blackstrap molasses
1/2 cup propylene glycol (or Karo syrup)
1/2 cup pedialyte (electrolyte solution)
pinch of mineral

Feed 3 X/day. If she starts popping back up, feed 2 X/day.

Another sign of this is if her flesh seems to have melted from off of her backbone.

The next thing to do is get some Calcium in her (read the article highlighted in BellaStar's post above (2 posts up).
If you don't have CMPK injectable (vet item, but about $6.00), then MFO is my choice. You give it orally. 20 ccs at a time, 3-5 X/day.
Since we are not sure this is the problem....I'd probably go with 3 X/day and see what happens.
If the feed store doesn't have MFO (Jeffer's and Valley Vet Supply do), there is a homemade recipe in Sue Reith's article on Hypocalcemia.

Thanks guys....seems odd to have hypocalcemia in a doe in late lactation, but maybe she gave her all....?

Camille

 

[Guest]

Sorry, I am running around like a crazy woman getting things ready for tomorrow.

Sounds like possibly pneumonia. The doe needs IV fluids, antibiotics, B vitamins, probios, banamine. Can you move her to some place warmer? Can you put a blanket or coat on her?

Has she had any change of feed? Has she gotten into anything, grain, weeds, etc? Has she tried CD antitoxin?

Sorry, but this sounds like she is in the end stages. How long has she had the sub normal temp? I don't necessarily think this is a case of just something metabolic. I think you may now be dealing with several issues due to her system shutting down.

Camille, your friend really needs to start giving us these updates as it's really difficult to help someone via a third person. If she needs help signing on she can call me at home 320-763-9399. I am really grasping at straws here... too many things going on at once. Tell her to sign on and give us an update or call me.

Sara

 

[amyrob]

Ok, home from work...Read all the replies and thanks to all. I'll try to give it my best shot to answer as many questions as I can. Let me say that I have had a recommendation that it may be milk fever from a lady on another forum. I have read about it in my Goat Health Handbook and in the articles by Sur Reath on here. I don't have everything to make the requirements for calcium, magnesium, and phosphorus but I'll give it my best sjhot from my home pharmacy. I drink so much milk that I don't keep extra calcium around except for tums and I would be leary about the aluminum in them but will read the sweetlix bag to see what's in it. I haven't really prodded in her mouth that much til the last 2 days to check for a seed abcess along her gums and to drench her and givr baking soda balls. Probiotic rx is my next plan, I think along w/ the minerals listed above. I fully understand ketosis as my husband is diabetic and that was what was happening to him slowly when he was 1st diagnosed.

Ok--she is hunched up in her back and I didn't rally pick up on that til last night. On the + side, she did have some good liiking poop x 2 last night. Urine was concentrated but a fair amount. She was in the mud room for 2 hrs in am and 2 in pm warming up. Can and will set her up in a trailer of her own w/ straw bale insulation and her own alfalfa(3rd cutting) and hot H2O and free feed baking soda and seetlix. So far, I have been hesitant to push the sugar/energy on her. Gums and eyelids are pink. Bluish color was a goop on the eyelid, not the eye itself. I didn't really change her feed, maybe more of a switch to more hay than pasture as they used to free range for 2 1/2 years and sleep in a pen at night until the range wars started w/ my neighbor. Herd health has been overall very good since July 05 when I started the goat thing. She does shiver, isn't bleating really at all. The drum sound whern you tap her belly was better last night. Will get a temp here when hubby brings her in. Hasn't had any grain really since she quit milking except trying a few bites when I have her in to check her. Doesn't fight to get to the hay feeder like a normal goat. Still can jump up in the stand which is chair seat height. Will send this, rellok at the questions and write more.

 

[Guest]

This is not a treatment plan. How is this going to help her? What are you doing for her? What meds are you giving her? Have you called your vet?

What's her temp? I am more than willing to help, but I really need more to go on. How long has she been sick?

Sara

 

[amyrob]

OK, I will kick my self about this if I missed it but I had been looking, just not squeezing. OK--PCN was used to treat what I thought may have been pneumonia about 2 weeks ago for 3-4 days. She did have a crusty nose and was under temp like now. Tonight it is 99.3/99.7. Eyes look better tonight. Tried only a few bites of but drank a quart of water right of the bat. Udder looked fine except the R teat a slight bit fuller and it was cold last night compared to the L when Camille asked me. I milked it and got some thick stuff out, come chunky/dry. L felt like it had a few small lumps in it that you could pull down. Got some out and when empty, did get a twinge of blood at the end. She did moan a bleat once during this. Could this all be mastitis? The low temp and bloating still seem like they shouldn't go along w/ it that much. Is this s normal finding post drying off of 3-4 weeks?

I haven't CDT'd her yet this fall. Has worn a vest off and on for warmth.

Sara, what time zone are you? I guess I can call if you're on!!
And for the record, I am east of Camille, but in Western MT!!!!!

Thanks, Camille for all your intervention.

 

[Kaye White]

Read about hypocalcemia

If you are milking this doe.....stop it now. Do not take any more milk from her udder. The shivering,the low temp, and several other things are leading me to believe milk fever. And yes, they can get it late in lactation.
No,Penn, no antibiotics. Baking soda is good. Very limited amount, if any, grain. LOTS of grass hay and alfalfa.
If your able...injectable Calcium. Camille knows how to treat this.
Kaye

 

[wheytogosaanens]

Amy if this was my doe I would hit her with a dual action....

The energy/sugar to keep her going while we fix the calcium imbalance.

The MFO/CMPK/homemade Calcium to fix the calcium imbalance. Feed only alfalfa for now.

You can make alfalfa tea- serve it hot, like the water. If she won't drink it, then drench her with it...pretty high in calcium and certainly better than nothing.
Noone will be open tomorrow, but you could make plans to either go to the vet on Friday AM or have Jeffers one day air some supplies
or you can come here and get some stuff from me....

Since she has been sick like this for almost a month now, doubtful that it is entero, so the sugar/energy can't hurt, should help.
The calcium also can't hurt....so pretty safe to pursue this course of action.

Hang in there...keep trying. She certainly hasn't given up, perhaps just needs this boost and she'll turn around for you.
Camille

 

[amyrob]

Called Sara. Gave her another B complex tonight. Trying to get a hold of some IV fluids and hope one of the ER docs I know well will call me tomorrow. Called vet in Bonners Ferry emergency line tonight and talked w/ him. Am calling there fri am for an appt which will likely be saturday. If nothing else will have them administer fluids and work on the calcium imbalance. I'm sure we will be doing bloodwork but the might have to give her the fluids first to get blood out of her but I would argue that would sway the results if the blood is diluted first. Anyway, we'll see. For now, she drank more water and I drenched her with some pedialyte. She in a goose down vest in a small enclosed trailer w/ an entire bale straw and a buddy adn some warm water. Tomorrow I will dig up all the pertinent calcium, etc form the home remedy list and give it to her along w/ the homemade pribios.

Thanks to all for the support and I will keep you posted. Thanks for the offer of supplies, Camille. For the air fee, it's more worth a trip to the vet as there is no overnight anything to Libby. 2 day is the best we can get for the most part.

 

[Guest]

I've read this thing about 3 times now, and agree that you are having calcium problems with this doe. Injections would be the best way to go if at all possible. Since this goat still seems to have control of her muscles, I'm not sure how depleted she really is.
There is one thing that keeps sticking out at me in this thread.......you said that you are now feeding 3rd cut alf. hay. Is it possible that this hay is a piece of a problem ? If somehow, she has eaten some blister bugs in this new hay... it may be a reason for some of her other symptoms. I would look my new hay over anyhow.
Your doe seems to be a fighter, so don't give up yet.......Best wishes, Whim

 

[Kaye White]

If somehow, she has eaten some blister bugs

Blister beetles *present* in a totally different way with different symptoms.
Kaye

 

[Gabe]

"I thought of poisoning first because instead of reading "bluish ****" i read "bluish look of eye membrane". i should learn to read better :sigh

this is what i found about blister beetles.

A diagnosis of blister beetle poisoning is suggested by (1) compatible clinical signs and a history of alfalfa hay consumption and (2) finding blister beetles in the hay or in the bottom of the feed bunk. Confirmation of the diagnosis can be made by chemical analysis of urine, serum, or stomach contents for cantharidin. Clinical signs vary with the severity of poisoning but suggestive ones include: colic, sweating, feed refusal, salivation, congested oral mucous membranes, ulceration of the oral mucosa, washing the muzzle in water, straining to urinate, blood in the urine, elevated body temperature, diarrhea, abnormal heart rate and respiration, fever, and muscle stiffness with short-strided or "goose-stepping" gait. Horses showing neuromuscular signs may have abnormal serum calcium and magnesium levels, which will require correction. Laminitis has been reported to occur in some equine cases.

http://microvet.arizona.edu/AzVDL/infoAlerts/blisterBeetle.html

If in a horse, poisoning with blister beetles cause abnormal calcium and magnesium levels, couldn't that be enough to cause milk Fever in a goat? how can a goat get milk fever if her diet has sufficient amount of calcium from alfalfa?