First freshener lost her gut

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by buckrun, Mar 11, 2008.

  1. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    I have a first freshener that kidded with twin does in November. She eats all day on fertilized rye grass- protein tested hay in the barn-milking ration in morning and alfalfa pellets at night. She has free access to kelp-yeast and minerals. When she comes in at night with the herd she has no belly even tho I see her grazing all day. She is thin and her hair looks like she put her toe in a light socket. I have tried all the things that come to mind first- she has good pink eyelids and tounge-did a multi mineral injection-etc-would love to find a fix so pile on everyone with any input welcome ! I am so impressed with what a great community you have here!
    Thanks!
    Lee
    New Rocky Comfort Nubians
    Buck Run Pottery
     
  2. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Welcome to the forum, and just some thoughts for you really not a diagnosis.

    Got a photo? Especially a photo with another herd mate of hers same age, fresh 4 months.

    Was she a kid ravaged by cocci, so she doesn't have the intestinal health...cocci kills the lining of the intestine, and nearly all calories are absorbed via the lining of the intestine, and all immunity comes from it, so cocci and worms to some extent can leave goats unable to utilize all that they eat. They always look pinched, drawn and haggard, eating right along with herdmate who is most instances are wormed less, eat less on the milkstand, yet give more milk, better kids, and look wonderful.

    Also some does simply genetically don't have the heart girth, the depth of body or the spring of rib to show the large abdomanal cavity a full hay or grass bellied doe has at the end of a long day grazing.

    All weight gain in dairy does, real working girls, is done during the dry time. So though you could, unless it's cocci damage, improve your minerals so her hair improves, if she is the only one with this problem I wouldn't call this a herd wide problem where minerals need to be fixed.

    You will always have a low man on the totem pole if you got rid of this doe another would take her place. Low does don't get premium hay, they don't get their turn at the alfalfa pellets, unless milking rarely get grain, and never have a warm place to sleep. Vicki
     

  3. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    I'm really fond of adding some beet pulp to the usual ration to help keep weight on milkers, I work up to a couple of cups depending on need. Thats in addition to the usual, not instead.

    Have you given copper lately? I always think copper with coat issues. Soem oils might help her I have BOSS in my feed , some folks here top dress with it. Another thing I like to do is a get a pound each of flax seed, wheat germ, and mix about 5 or 6 ounces of dried comfrey leaves into it. Not too pricy at the health food store and easy to get. I mix them together and top dress with a handful of that a couple of times a week for Omega 3 fatty acids, Vit E and other great nutrients in it. Comfrey supports milk production and they love it. I add about the same amt of rasberry leaf to that mix for does just before and after they freshen.

    My 145 lb FF nubian delivered Feb 5 and was starting to lose condition. She was wormed with Cydectin as soon as she freshened and a week later, so that wasnt it. She's giving me about 5-6 lbs a day and feeding a buckling, which I didnt think was too bad for a petite FF. Her condition has improved, coat is better and shes actually put on a few pounds. Not sure if it would work for anyone else, but Im happy with the results here. HTH.
     
  4. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    Careful using these or cabbage...you can deplete your iodine and have more major problems.

    You mention injection copper?? Are you using copper boluses or copper sulfate?

    LOL...and another thing about beet pulp. If you feed it in excessive amounts, it will cause your does to milk more, thus pulling weight off even faster.
    Kaye
     
  5. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    Kaye thats interestign about weight coming off with beet pulp. In my (admittedly limited!) expereince, but on advice from others with years of using it, both comfrey and beet pulp do support and increase milk volumes. But Ive found that as long as they are fed in addition to maintenance and milk rations they seem to give extra towards the milk and allow more for the doe herself. Maybe its the high calcium and nutritional content of comfrey added to the extra energy, fibre and nutritional content of the beets?

    I love hearing that from you, challenging my assumtions is improtant to me- thats how I learn! My FF is starting to go way up on her prodution, she'll be two months fresh 4/5. I'm seperating at night and hten getting a half gallong to three quarts in the mornings, and putting her back in with the buckling, so she must be putting out close to a gallon and a half a day. He's growing like a weed.

    this might be a great experiment int he making, seeign how to increase conditon and maintain or increase milk. I'd also be fascinated to learn how supplementing beet and or comfrey affects milk quality, if it does. Next year when I have more does freshen and I'm pullling all the babies to bottle maybe I could design some kind of trial that would give us some idea of if/how it works. Would be really cool if we could get the milk tested and see how it changes if it does. Any ideas on how to put something together that would give us meaningful resutls? What kind of data would you or other breeders find interesting enough to say "no, not worth it, doesnt work", or "That looks good, I can see it might be worth trying for my management style".
     
  6. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Laura I am glad my goats don't read on here, they will want to come and live with you :)

    v
     
  7. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    ROFL, Vicki, they just dont know how good they have it by you....and by the way, I hope one IS coming to live by me-at least, one of their kids!!

    Beet pulp is about 9.50 a bag here, about the same as alfalfa pellets. Theres a LOT of it in a 50 lb bag, its light stuff. A cup or two a day- the bag would last for a longgggg time. Ive been using one bag this last month for three does and its hardly got a quarter of it gone, probably less.

    I guess in the long run, for me its cheaper than having to increase my grain mix, or add more oats, and if it puts weight back on them and they look better, its really saving me money in the long run.

    I hate to see a doe drug down too much, I think they are more susceptable to illness and parasites and just look like hades. Not a good advertisement either, when the doe looks bad. Scares me a bit, I'd think twice if I was looking at her kids.
     
  8. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    Oh and one nice thing about comfrey, its really cheap and easy to grow LOTS of it. Horizon Herbs sells rooted cuttings. IIRC its 6 for $10 and 30 for $20. Got 20 sitting on the back porch waiting for me to plant. The first year you geta decent sized plant and can pick a bushel basket of leaves off it as it grows. Big leaves. Goats love em so do chickens and most livestock. they dry well, and make great comfrey hay with little effort- a scissor to trim them off with, a place to lay them out to dry for few days, and baskets to keep them in. After the first year they get even bigger and more vigorous and the yield is just great. They may need an occassional watering when its real dry, but they are easy and very forgiving -more like vigorous weeds than anything. the second year you can take off root cuttings to share or plant more. So a small investment in them can yield really good returns in milk production and reduced feed costs for goats and poultry, rabbits and other livestock. Not as a main feed, but as an adjunct. Just make sure you plant them somewhere they will stay because they are hard to get rid of once established! Were also going to try an area with the old "Three Sisters" this year- corn, pole beans on the corn, and squash underneath. Also mangels and beets. If I can grow enough to cut my feed bill by 20 or 30 percent I;ll be very happy.
     
  9. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    :lol Laura, I'm just the opposite. If I go to look at a doe or kids, the dam is a big ole' lard butt at less than 4 months fresh... then I know she's not much of a milker. Any doe that puts on flesh during her 1st 3 months of lactation is not utilizing her feed for what it's meant for. (Another reason judges ask for kidding month in the spring, to justify a "Dairy Doe" over a beefy doe.) Milk production. I'd rather see some ribs,hip bones, and udder full of milk. There's an old saying that generally goes along with a good milker.."Fat on the hips, means she putting it on there, instead of in the milk bucket." It's very hard to put weight on good milkers during their climb to peak production. Regardless of how much or what you feed.

    Lee, please read the studies done on copper. It's listed on the Saanendoah.com site or may be in Goats 101. Injections, boluses, and copper sulfate were all put through the tests.
    Goitrogens such as Brassica plant family can contribute to goiters. Do a search on Brassica plants and it will give a list of plants that are included.
    There are several sites that give reasons for goiters in goats and the Brassica plants are one. I got my information from Goat Medicine and it's way to long to type on here. :/
    Kaye
     
  10. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    Thanks for the reference Kaye- i think if i do it all in balance with full days of grazing and browsing we should be OK- but certainly will do the reading. I have read extensively on copper and there is lots of good info out there but did not know of the iodine connection.
    Appreciate the heads up!
    My husband used to teach chemistry and biology and has a very good grip on the molecular actions of different types and forms of the elemental metals. I started using the injection when a vet assistant who has LaManchas told me how it improved her metabolic issues at kidding time.

    Thanks too for the comfrey info Laura- we also put in magels this year since they love the beet pulp so much. A bag of it does go a long way but we are experimenting with fresh this year too. I am with ya totally on supplementing from the garden.
    All input on that is so terrific so thanks!
    Lee
     
  11. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    Kaye- i found alot of good info on brassicas and thyroid problems and it applies to people too. The main point was that overfertilization with nitrates concentrates chemicals in the plants that can cover the same receptors as iodine and not allow iodine uptake.
    If however they are grown in a more natural way there is not as much risk. Lots of the info was derived from studies of livestock raised on brassica rapa or common rape. they fertilized with commercial formulas and there were health problems. Thanks for drawing my attention to that.

    It would be great to gather more info on the experiences people have had with gardening for goats.

    There are some issues with comfrey as well but in small amounts it is good.
    They concentrate a chemical that is liver toxic but only if used in excess.
    Lots to learn!
    Lee
     
  12. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    :biggrin Thanks,Lee.
    I don't have much left over garden for the goats around here. I've got a "Country" hubby that likes to EAT! Very little is left for animals. He says,"We'd starve a slop hog to death!" :/
    Kaye
     
  13. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    be careful of too many mangels or sugar beets give limited amounts especially to bucks and wethers it has been found in sheep studies to cause UC