facial malformations

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by LynninTX, Jan 21, 2008.

  1. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    The kind of thing you just hate to post. This has been a rough yr here kidding wise. This is a new one on me... until now I have been very blessed with my kiddings... sure I had a couple mal-presentations that caused me some stress, but nothing major. And no kids lost at birth except the last 2 last yr and I think mom was just bred too young maybe...

    This yr has been very very different. The kinda year you hesitate to post about.

    Let's see if I can get all the facts down

    #1 Ginger -
    2006 kidded a single buck no problem
    2007 cloudburst
    2008 kidded #1 unattended... buckling dead when I got there, hair, but no teeth, went in to check and found *bones*

    #2 Cinnamon -
    2006 twin bucks no trouble
    2007 twin does no trouble
    2008 triplet does... mild malpresentations... all fine

    #3 Gypsy -
    2005 twin does mild malpresentation
    2006 2 does/1 buck mild malpresentation
    2007 twin bucks missed the birth
    2008 twin does... 1 died during birth due to my handling... was not proactive when I should have been...

    #4 Butterscotch -
    2007 buck/doe no problems
    2008 my first train wreck... 2 heads & 2 legs... called Vickie, first out was a live doe with a severe facial deformity, next out was a live healthy normal buck... I put the doe down. Basically she had NO upper jaw. Her nose was JUST below her eyes, lower jaw & tongue present. I did not think at the time to take a picture. This was the first kid I had to put down and I was a bit shaken up.

    #5 Dolce -
    2007 buck/doe no problems
    2008 triple bucks... #1 fine & healthy, #2 head back, dead at birth, and I am still unsure on this one.. at first I declared female... then my son said boy... and thought it had several abnormalities... on looking most of what he said was not the case... just him looking several hours after birth (eyes sunken, etc)... but on looking I saw now the scrotal sack, but no penis... I am though now second guessing myself... I should have taken him where I had better light.... so possibly no penis... possibly just dead... #3 fine & healthy oh this is a Mini Mancha and baby #1 was 7lbs... #2 was 3.5... #3 was 4lbs

    #6 Aria -
    2007 buck/doe no problems
    2008 buck/doe no problems

    #7 Coco -
    2007 buck/doe no problems
    2008 twin bucks..... #1 died about 15min after birth... had the same basic facial deformity as Butterscotch's... just not nearly as severe. #2 live, healthy, normal
    Pictures below

    #8 Vicki -
    2005 buck/doe no problems, unattended
    2006 stayed open
    2007 buck/doe no problems
    2008 buck/doe no problems, unattended

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Has anyone else had malformations like this?
    Did you ever discover the cause?
     
  2. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Did you use the same buck that you used previous years or the same buck on all the ones deformed??
    Also here is a study and include eating of local weed causing malformations
    http://jvdi.org/cgi/reprint/5/3/458.pdf
     

  3. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    I really do NOT think it is the buck... I used him extensively both yrs and have only had these 2. It is the first time I used him on these particular does.

    Vickie suggested an environmental toxin... whether plant or chemical...

    Also though I did not use the buck on Coco last yr I used him on her twin, he has been used on her mom, and on several half sisters...
     
  4. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    The buck in question btw is my favorite and throws gorgeous kids...
     
  5. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    just added a pdf file above and yes toxins they eat can cause it.
     
  6. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    thanks... printing to read
     
  7. Good Goats

    Good Goats New Member

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    Wow, I am sorry Lynn.

    Suriyah
     
  8. Beverrlly

    Beverrlly New Member

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    Wow...what a year so far! :/ Here's hoping it gets better for you. Please keep us updated as to what you find out--I would love to know if you find a cause. So sorry this happened.
     
  9. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife New Member

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    Seems to me that I recall hearing that when there is a drought that the alkaloids, etc that are normally benign in a plant can concentrate and become toxic. We didnt have a drought last yr, but the yr before...I dont know how long the toxic conditions last, but if the plants grew under that condition in 2006 then the does ate that browse in 2007 during breeding/development??? Seems like a grasp to me, though, seems like it would be too long of a gap between the drought in '06 and deformities in '08.
     
  10. Meshale

    Meshale New Member

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    I have heard of some wormers given at the wrong time..can cause malformations also...can't think of what it was though....
     
  11. BlueHeronFarm

    BlueHeronFarm New Member

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    Wow, Lynn -- I am sorry about your kid troubles.
    Those photos are fascinating. The second one looks like a chimpanzee profile. So unusual.
    I thank you for taking those and sharing. I'm sure it was not easy to do.
    I agree it sounds like toxins - let us know if you develop any theories about what they may have eaten or otherwise been exposed to.
     
  12. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    they were wormed prebreeding early Aug... put in with bucks Aug 5th with cydectin and wormed with ivermectin + in Dec

    I can't think of any browse they were exposed to during breeding... since both these girls like most of mine were bred to Anson over the summer... they were in my big back yard...

    We gave up using their browse yard... it is full of that one fuzzy weed they will not touch and they were not browsing..

    I can't recall if they spent time in our old garden or not... just not sure...

    Hmm browsing is not something I keep records on...
     
  13. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    Sorry.........IMO I think that this was more than likely the result of poor eggs or weak sperm,,,,,or a combination of both.........Deficiencies ,feed or other environmental conditions may have cause this to happen, if so, those conditions may have only existed for a short period of time to have caused these defects. This type development was taking place throughout most, if not all of this pregnancy.
    If there is a bright side to this....it is that you may never have this happen again.

    Again, Sorry
    Whim
     
  14. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    How does that work Whim with others in the same group being fine and the twin of each being healthy?

    Including 1 in the group having healthy triplets?

    Gypsy
    Vickie
    Cinnamon
    Butterscotch
    Coco
    Ginger

    were all in the same yards, same feed, etc, and bred to the same buck....
     
  15. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    If I could answer that question, I could put UCP and the March of Dimes out of business. All I'm thinking here, is that this big a problem started very early in conception, if not at the moment of......you know what I mean.
     
  16. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    gotcha... thank you...
     
  17. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    It's called a monkey face and yes it is caused by a toxin. I still can not find the original site that showed the deformities and the reasons for them. Guess I have to go over to my least favorite site and dig. Vicki


    http://www.cybergoat.com/cyclopia/cyclopia.htm This shows both Monkey face and cyclops together from helliatrop...but I know on the other site it is alkaloid disease.
     
  18. LynninTX

    LynninTX New Member

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    thank you vickie! Off to check out the link...
     
  19. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

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    I have to agree with Blue Heron that this is just fascinating! I am sorry about this happening to you, but there is something in me that has always liked this kind of stuff. I was a weird little kid BTW.

    Why don't you email the pics to Texas A&M. They have a terrific collection of freaks at the vet school and I am sure somebody there would know something. If nothing else, I am sure they would find the pics fascinating as well.

    BTW...the freaks I refered to at the vet school were the specimens, not the students.