F1-F5 and beyond

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by rojen, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. rojen

    rojen New Member


    Say I breed a Philippine native to a Nubian it is now 50/50 (f1?) - I keep the doelings and sell the bucklings. After a yr I breed again, now offspring are 25/75 (f2?), repeat 12.5/87.5 (f3?) - hope to start milking here, repeat 6.25/93.75 (f4?), since it will never quite reach 100%. At what point are they considered purebred or registerable as full blood?

    Also the buckling I am still trying to buy is 87.5 AN. They told me he is f5. If that is true the math above on the f1-5 is off. Can someone correct me pls?


    P.S. My goat dairy house is almost done. Due to challenges I was unable to buy bucklings yet so that has slipped until April - God willing. Which turns out to be good; we had a prolonged rainy season and the temporary shelters are not as good as I like in monsoon conditions. So the real deal will keep them healthier. The house is a little bigger than 24 X 30 and has kidding / milking / isolation / and storage areas for a small herd in there. I am anxious to keep moving on this project goats are turning out to be fun and challenging.

    Ron Nieuwsma
  2. Rose

    Rose New Member

    I have heard the F-1 terminology in cattle, but not in goats. That doesn't mean it's *not* used, just that it's not familiar to me in that context.

    Are you a member of the ADGA? I'm sure their handbook has the info you seek.

  3. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    The f1 -F5 holds true with the new mini breeds and works this way.
    you have doe 1 and buck 1 they produce babies that are F1 then you have doe 2 and buck 2 they produce babies that are F1 now you have two separate families of F1 so you take F1 doe from first breeding and you take F1 buck from second group and breed these together now you have F2 babies and so on.
    But don't think it works this way with ADGA and Nubians. also not sure you can get to Purbred statusn with experiementals in Nubians. but can get to American. Now LaMancha's is another story as the herd books are still open.
  4. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

    Ron-can animals be imported into your area? What about semen or embryos? I realize that AI might not be common in the area, but is there a college or other large agricultural organization that does use it? Decent AN are very inexpensive over here, I'd bet that we could find plenty to send there is we knew the import hurdles and could jump them. Perhaps find a stateside church group to sponsor such a project?
  5. coso

    coso Guest

    You can get recorded grade Nubian papers when they meet ADGA breed standards. Until that they will be Experimental. The Nubian herd book is closed so you will never be able to have purebred. American papers kick in after the 87.5 breeding I believe. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
  6. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    Ron you can do all this breeding up for yourself, but you can't register them with ADGA or AGS. ADGA only recognizes...Nubian, Lamancha, Alpine, Saanen, Toggs, Obies, Nigerian Dwarfs and Sables, and you can't even cross and regsiters anything with Nigerian Dwarfs and grade up in our herd books.

    An Amercian Nubian is always an amercian nubian, they can never make Purebred because the herd books are closed. Have you actually seen this bucks paperwork? Vicki

    I have a buckling going to Peurto Rico for this exact purpose in 3 weeks, and if we can get the state vet to give us an answer Costa Rica.
  7. rojen

    rojen New Member

    Hi, I sure do love this group, so thoughtful and a large variety of good ideas.

    Rose, I had not even thought of joining ADGA, not being in American and playing by Philippine rules instead. (Altho truth be told even the Philippines tries to march to USDA standards in terms of milk pasturization and such. In terms of animal and building, not even close! ADGA??)

    Thanks Sondra, That is ringing bells, now that you reminded me. I thought that terminology applied to all breeds. I have seen it even referrred to in breeding plants.

    Maybe purebred is the wrong term. If I can get a goat 99.9% one breed what would they call that? Commercial AN? Sondra you said I can get to American, what is that?

    Unfortunately I do not have access to Lamachas. I liked what I read about that breed, but I do not believe they are as tropical tolerant. The two dairy breeds I can buy here are AN and Saanen. The Saanen is not tropical tolerant and has to be handled carefully. There are some others reported, but I have not found the breeders nor listings for sale.

    I have traveled to where there were reported goat programs and herds. Lots of times they are now gone. The project ended and also the goats which should have kept going among the selected recipient farmers.

    I have found 3 breeders who will sell upgrades, two that sell purebreds. The purebreds are very expensive, like $1,000 USD and up. The 87.5% upgrade is going to cost me about $150. Huge diff. Plus with the high death rate frankly replacing a $150 dollar goat would hurt a lot less than the 1 or 2 thousand dollar animal. Just got told yesterday that the breeder who sold cheapest ($150 to $300) doubled his price. The other breeder who has stock is $450 for the same animal, but he has good records and you can look at the dam and sire. The first imports AI from Houston and therefore has lower costs. The other imports live animals from Australia as his basic stock. Both breeders are dealing in herd sizes of 1,000 or more total. Big operations; both have mainly meat and are both now starting dairy operations.

    I hope by good management practices to overcome a lot of the death rate problems, but that is something I am working on. Right now my herder refuses to follow simple things like rotation by plan, giving them water and shelter avail at all times. Talking to others they too have challenges getting the herders to not take *short-cuts*. Both herders I have tried agree to everything, then do what they want. Which is stake the animals in the same place day in and day out, not provide any water ever, and not provide shelter except at night, when they are locked up to prevent theft.

    When our house is finished we will move out to where the herd is and I hope I can then solve these problems. Sorry for the ramble.

    Laura, animals can be imported. I have talked to some who have done it, 5K and up. Plus a lot of stress. AI can also be imported. There are no technicians in my area AI capable, so I will have to learn it from nothing. But that is the direction I hope to go. I was planning on trying to obtain some training at the AG college here which is not close. The AG college within distance does not know how (I asked last week.) They have new goats from Aus - 2 males, AN, 1 dead already, the second going lame and they do not expect it to live. The blame contaminated pasture.

    AI should solve a number of challenges I have. But AI will never get me to 100% since I am starting with less than 100%,

    You guys are talking ADGA, but is that the international breed paper keeper? (excuse my lack of proper terms).

    I visit DA here a bit, maybe that is what I should ask them. If I want a registered breed animal where would the paperwork go or come from? (DA Depart of Ag)
    And -
    Is there a Philippine equivalent to the American papers? I have heard the term Purebred Saanen and Commercial Saanen, but haven't learned yet the diff. (It was posted in an advert).

    The nubian percentages I am starting with are part American Nubian and part Australian or New Zealand - FYI. I guess they too have their herd books. I thought it was more international, maybe it is good that it is at the natl level, so I can work with DA here.

    I am in contact with the Goat and Sheep association, but after looking at their herd records most of it is limited to Dam and Sire, birth date, birth wt, and percentage of blood. There are two that have decent records, one is mentioned above (the one importing from Aus & the other an AN dairy operation I visited last yr for training. The AN operation is very far and is on another island, plus when I contact them they never have anything avail for sale. Always trying to herd build.)

    Living here is an adventure, a challenge, and wonderful. +Tropical Island paradise, very laid back lifestyle.

    One of the huge pluses I have found is the diversity of highly available fodder. I can easily feed high quality feed without buying concentrates based on what I have read from orgs like FAO. A lot of these feeds are not used at all, but just left ala natural. Like the acacia seed pods, which are not even collected but have high energy and I gave s ome to the goats today and they like it! There are thousands of seed pods all over my neighborhood alone. I have listed 31 basic plants most of which I already have that will make up my initial feed ration.

    Everyone claims little or no mortality among the larger herders. But after getting to know one over some months he has had almost 50% mortality over the last yr and half - and I saw sick goats. But like most he provides no rain protection and no pasture rotation, and no meds. His pastures are not improved and he does no addition feeding.

    Thanks for the help and venting.
  8. Rose

    Rose New Member

    With the high death rate on dairy goats that you mentioned, I'm wondering several things.

    Are the forages high calcium? Having a 'high energy' forage is fine, but dairy goats need high calcium, or milk fever (low calcium during pregnancy and lactation) will kill them.

    Are the forages toxic to goats? Our lists of toxic plants are quite long, and many landscape plants are on them. I am wondering if some of the beautiful tropical plants are killing goats.

    Are you on any kind of worming program?

    You might want to contact Heifer International. They work with people in establishing healthy herds of all kinds of animals. They may already have the knowledge needed for your location.