dry doe with mastitis - how to proceed?

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by jkarcher, Jun 23, 2008.

  1. jkarcher

    jkarcher New Member

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    Hi to all, This is my first post to this board. I've read the various threads on mastitis, but would like some guidance for my specific situation.
    May 2006: We purchased 3 lamanchas (yearling doe in milk and doeling and wether sibling pair)two years ago. We got them primarily as pets and brush clearers and planned to breed/milk in the future when we have more time. The doe that was in milk was producing on one side and her kid had died. The family said they were going to send her to slaughter and they had not been milking her regularly. One side was small, unproductive and the teat was hardly developed. Upon a vets recommendation, we gave her penicillin. She also had two doses of naxcel for a laceration to her leg and then another vet recommended treating her with tommorrow and drying her off and then retreating with tomorrow several weeks later. That's what we did and everything resolved, the udder evened out, the teat developed, and there didn't seem to be a lot of scar tissue. Everyone thought she'd be fine to breed.

    June 2008: Friday before last we noticed that side was swollen and was hard. I took her to a vet who diagnosed mastitis. He said it wouldn't be possible to know the type unless we cultured and prescribed twin penn, 5cc evry 48 hours for 8 days. He also gave her an infusion of cephlosporin. I asked if I shouldn't milk out the crud and give additional infusions and he said no. I'd read in several places that naxcel was the drug of choice for mastitis, so I don't know why I didn't speak up then and also insist on a culture. I called back the following Monday and asked about the culture, and if we shouldn't switch to Naxcel. He said not until she'd finished the course of penicillin. I was confused as to why there would be a problem now, but on Wednesday I found a laceration of about 1/2" on the teat. It probably happened while she was out foraging in the woods and then infection set in. She didn't act sick or quit eating but she did feel like she had a fever. Don't know how long it had been going on before we discovered it...She's had 5 doses of the penicillin and the swelling and pain had subsided significantly. I began last Wednesday massaging with a medicated udder salve (from Fiasco Farm) twice each day. I also went ahead Saturday and Sunday and milked out the udder. This caused the size of the udder to reduce even more and now it is much smaller than the other side. I still feel some hard places, but can't tell if they are cysts or scarring. I have a tube of tomorrow on hand from the last go-round. My questions:
    1. Should I take her back to the vet for a culture? Can you get a reliable reading once the animal has been on meds?
    2. Something has caused the swelling and hardness to resolve- was it the penicillin or more likely the cephlosporin? Should I give her a couple more shots of the penn or try to get some Naxcel? If the vet doesn't want to give it to me, can I puchase it on-line?
    3. Should I give her one or more treatments of tomorrow? Or, use another brand?
    4. Keep cleaning out the udder?

    I feel that maybe I've lost valuable time and hope that it isn't too late to save the udder. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
     
  2. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I would doubt the pennicillin did very much but the infusion did...until you milked it out. You have weeks before a culture would do anygood because of using the meds. Finish the meds before you move on to doing something else...and boy do you need to hear this...less is more :)

    Stop right now the massage with whatever hocus pocus you learned on that other site, nothing you use unless it contains DMSO can penetrate into the udder and help, what it does is sets you up for staph dermatitis on the outside of the udder as you put a layer of protective petroleum on the skin, under it is the perfect enviornment to grow staph (warm and moist) make sure she gets a good soap and water wash after you massage with stuff like this. And shoot just use Vic's or metholatum.

    I would stop everything after you do the pennicillin and dry treat her. I think you have found out for yourself the saga of the dry doe. Dairy goats just don't do well as barren does. They need to be in production, extended times of being dry makes them infertile as they build internal fat from living the easy life, and it also each spring when they should be in milk, and every fall when they come into heat...hormones in the udder seem to bring on problems like this. Does who aren't bred who have a will to milk come into milk without kidding. Old bacteria in the udder activates and causes even virgin does who caught the bacteria from nursing their dam to come into mastitic udders. Vicki
     

  3. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    Naxcel IS cephlosprin. If you had continued the Naxcel,every day, for no less than 5 days, you might have seen an improvement. Penn-G didn't do a thing for mastitis. Healed the leg though.Penn-G and even Penn/Ben doesn't work in goats at the same rate as cattle. It needs to be given every day and most of us give Penn-G twice a day instead of once.

    If you're not going to culture this doe then dry treat her with Pirsue, now, and again at 50 days from kidding. The dry period is the best time to treat a doe for mastitis...it's also one of the times it's easiest to contract mastitis. Milk and bacteria is left in the udder, add meds. to treat the bacteria and it can cure it altogether.

    I'd also have the doe tested for CL and CAE. And hope your dealing with Staph spp.
    Kaye
     
  4. jkarcher

    jkarcher New Member

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    Vicki and Kaye, Thanks for the good advice. I will discontinue using the twin penn as we have given her the # of doses prescribed by the vet (although Kaye's comments about using it differently in goats than cattle raised more questions/concerns). I'll dry treat her with the Tomorrow I have on hand as I've not had any luck finding Pirsue on-line in packs less than 12. I guess my other option is to go back to the vet, confess my goof & try to get more cephlosporin. I'll stop with the massages, I understand now that it could be counterproductive. I'm almost afraid to admit that there is one other thing I've been doing: vitamin C. Vicki, point taken on "less is more", but honestly I guess I was boggled by all the suggestions I had read (and worried). I may have misinterpreted some of the posts but it seemed like an aggressive and several pronged approach was usually taken. Plus, it's hard to know if you are getting the right advice from vets who are used to treating beef cattle. I really didn't think I was doing anything much different than some of the suggestions, other than trying to keep a dry doe as a pet! I thought the Naxcel might be a good way to go based on some of the recent posts. Are dry does handled differently as far as clearing the udder? I thought some of the suggestions were to infuse, clear, infuse, etc. Again, I may have misinterpreted. Please bear with me. You all have probably forgotten more than I will ever know. And Vicki, your thoughts on letting dairy goats perform as nature designed them make a lot of sense. I guess the moral to the story is: if you want a pet goat, get a wether! Jill
     
  5. jkarcher

    jkarcher New Member

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    Re: dry doe with mastitis - how to proceed? (update & more questions)

    I did finish the penicillin, pulled a sample for culture and then dry treated. Got the culture back and it is serratia marcescens. The vet said the bacteria was present in such numbers to indicate an active infection. Does anyone have any experience with this bug? The vet said that naxcel is the only thing that will touch it so he gave me 12cc's drawn into one syringe with three needles and said to give her two cc's every 48 hours over a 12 day period. Everything I've read on Naxcel says every 24 hrs. , so I faxed him an excerpt from Saanendoah (including the part about low doses not penetrating the mammary) and also the meds chart provided at the Goat Field Day at Langston U. that we attended. He said that he wants to stick with this dose to keep it in her system as long as possible, and that if she had an acute infection he might treat for three days, but this is chronic. Does this sound right to any of you? Also, Vicki, I'm not clear on something in your original answer. If the goat needs a systemic antiobiotic to clear mastitis and the penn doesn't work & I did only the dry treatment wouldn't there be a chance of a chronic problem that doesn't clear? It no longer looks acute (swollen, read and painful), but is now just small and shriveled looking. Please give me your thoughts. Many thanks. Jill
     
  6. Jill,

    Where are you in OK? I know ALOT of dairy people over in OK that I bet would be happy to sell you tubes of pursue, of course at a little higher price but, not out of this world.

    Ken in MO
     
  7. jkarcher

    jkarcher New Member

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    Hi Ken, I would love to get my hands on some Pirsue! I'm in central OK near Blanchard (SW of OKC). I could sure use a mentor, so if you know of anyone, that would be wonderful! Thanks, Jill
     
  8. The closest people I can think of is at Pauls Valley. If you want I can find their number for you. If that is not to far from ya, or you can call them see where their vet is at. Alot of times anymore you have to hunt out dairy vets. Since most Vet schools anymore dont have dairies for the programs they are kinda of just up in the air and textbooks on what is going on.

    Ken in MO
     
  9. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    See if also they will give you 2 more shots of Naxcel and some banamine 1cc per 100 pounds once a day for 6 days..

    The flaw in your vets logic is that at 24 hours the amount of naxcel in the bloodstream is going toward zero very very rapidly, they have such fast metabolisims, why nothing is given to goats every 48 hours, it allows the bacteria time to regroup with the numbers that low of the drug. It's also why in acute cases we will give a loading does at 12 hours.

    Also, Vicki, I'm not clear on something in your original answer. If the goat needs a systemic antiobiotic to clear mastitis and the penn doesn't work & I did only the dry treatment wouldn't there be a chance of a chronic problem that doesn't clear?
    ................

    Absolutely. When you throw the wrong meds at a bacteria or virus, you actually help it grow immune to drugs. Using pennicillin for something like this on it's own is the reason why when we tell you to use it next kidding season after a difficult delivery your doe will still get a uterine infection where, since I rarely use antibiotics, I would never have a problem like this. I also rarely have to pull out the big guns because I never overused antibiotics in my herd.

    Naxcel with Banamine injected and Pirsue infused, ought to get it, and if she still cultures positive, when the sensitivity comes back, get back with us on what they think you should use...because some mastitis, and I have never heard of what you have I would have to look it up, you simply can't keep the doe. Some mastitis is a cullable offense. Get two extra pirsues or Ken's Quartermaster to use at dry period.

    Always milk her last, culture her when she kids next year after the colostrum is gone to make sure you are clear.

    Review your milking routine. Vicki
     
  10. jkarcher

    jkarcher New Member

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    Ken, I would love to get the # for the folks in Pauls Valley. If you can't find the number, I could probably look them up if I had their name. I appreciate your offer to help!
    :help
    Vicki, I just returned from another vet with more Naxcel. I went to a vet that I sometimes see with my dogs and cats and he was willing to sell me some without me bringing the goat in. Wasn't even gonna try with the other guy. I now have a total of 25 cc's. What's the best way to divide up that amount dose wise? She had 22cc's on Tuesday and Weds. I gave her none on Thursday because the other vet was adamant about the 48 hrs. Should I count tonight as the 1st dose? I'm discouraged that her treatment has been all over the place and that this has been going on for a month now. I guess I'll chalk it up to learning! I asked the vet today for some Banamine, but he didn't think I needed it. I was so happy to get the Naxcel, I wasn't going to fight him on it. He did tell me to rememeber that he always has it when the need arises. Pirsue he hasn't heard of, but was willing to give me a script. Vicki, when you said get a couple of extras of the Pirsue, when were you thinking I should use it? One now, one 50 days before kidding and the other...? One thing the vet told me about this bug is that it is resistant to all the penicillins. Thanks again! I'm really grateful for the help you've provided. I don't know that I'm ready to go down the kidding and milking road yet!
     
  11. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Please tell me that 22 cc is a typo?

    It depends what I am treating how I use it. Since you have already started it, than I would go back to day 1. 1cc per 50 pounds every day for 5 days. Give 1cc more not 1cc less, so if she weighs 75 pounds give her the whole 2cc, not trying to get 1.5 etc....

    If she was in the throws of this...back when you gave the penicillin :) than we give it....

    1cc per 50 pounds twice a day for 2 days, then 1cc/50# once a day for 3 more days.

    Do you have enough Naxcel for this? Leftovers just syringe out into 3cc syringes and put them in a ziplock, label the ziplock and freeze them. Vicki
     
  12. jkarcher

    jkarcher New Member

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    Oops! Yes, the 22cc was indeed a typo. She got 2cc's on those dys per the vets instructions. That's why I thought maybe I should count last night as day 1, since it is unlikely that those low doses did anything and also since she hadn't had any for 48 hrs. She's 167 lbs. so that would be 4cc per day. I wasn't sure how many days to give her on that dose because of the previous low doses. I do have enough naxcel. When you said "if she was in the throws" you mean if she was acute you'd dose twice a day, correct? Thanks again
     
  13. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    When you said "if she was in the throws" you mean if she was acute you'd dose twice a day, correct?
    ..................

    Correct. Vicki
     
  14. jkarcher

    jkarcher New Member

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  15. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Vicki, I want to make sure I'm straight on this...Should I count the days where she was underdosed as days 1 & 2. Or count day 1 as the day she got the correct dose of 4cc's?
    .............................

    I would use the day she got the correct dose of 4cc as the first day.




    Also, I have a question regarding frozen Naxcel. I've read the other posts on the topic, but don't find this issue addressed: when my vet sold me more naxcel on Friday, he sent me home with two frozen syringes. Both were white. However, when I thawed one to use last night, it was a clear, slightly beige liquid. Is this normal after it has been frozen? I expected it to look like the unfrozen naxcel I had been using- white and milky-looking.
    ................................

    Well now that it was discolored I would use the day you used the correct colored Naxcel as your first day. That is the trick with meds, clear meds should not have spiderwebs in them, other meds should stay the same color as new.



    I read the post regarding a pneumonia issue and you suggested using banamine to prevent scarring in the lungs. Is scarring prevention why you would use it for masitits even though there is no fever present?
    ...........................................

    Exactly, not only does banamine keep a doe calm, lower temps but it also stops inflammation and it's the inflammation that causes scarring not only in lungs but in mammaries. You won't drop a does temp using banamine into a dangerous territory unless she is already crashing...now with infant kids you do have to weigh the use of banamine and it's effect on a kid who has no control over their body temp yet.

    Finally, will it be OK to use pirsue since she was treated with tomorrow ten days ago? Should I milk out the tomorrow first? I expect that it will take several days to get the Pirsue if I get it ordered tomorrow.
    ........................

    Yes I would milk her, there isn't alot of drug left anyway, Tommorrow is really benign, but it does have carrier in it, and hopefull you can also milk out more bacteria. Vicki
     
  16. coso

    coso Guest

    Any Naxcel that I have used when I mix it fresh, or frozen then unthawed is about the color of pee :shrug2
     
  17. jkarcher

    jkarcher New Member

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    Thanks Coso. Yes, that is exactly the color that it is. I'm really confused now, because the first vet that gave me Naxcel sent me home with some white stuff. It tended to separate, so I had to shake it up before dosing. Wonder what that was?? Is Excenel white?
     
  18. jkarcher

    jkarcher New Member

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    Hello again. The Pirsue was delivered (all twelve tubes). I understand that I'm to re-treat at 100 days bred, but do I do just one infusion now or more than one over a period of time? Also, I thought I had read a thread that recommended infusing the unaffected half. Should I infuse both halves, or just the one? Thanks so much! Jill
     
  19. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    Excenel is what he gave you instead of Naxcel. Excenel will seperate. Naxcel is "pee" colored..."liquid gold" is what I refer it to.
    Egads...stay as far away from that vet as you can!! 1. he's dispensing meds under the wrong name 2. he's also giving you wrong doses 3. he certainly doesn't know much about goats.
    Kaye
     
  20. jkarcher

    jkarcher New Member

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    You're right Kaye, it was Excenel. I did call them back last week and asked them to tell me exactly what they gave me- this time they said Excenel. The sad thing is that when I was looking for a "goat vet" I e-mailed OSU (ag school) and asked one of the goat vets who he could recommend in my area. He gave me this fellow's name, so I thought I could rely on him. I'm pretty frustrated that I spent a month of time fooling around when it probably could have gotten cleared up quickly if I'd gotten the right meds. Everything he told me regarding penicillin, the doses, etc. did not correspond with what I've read, but since he's a vet I didn't trust my gut. And boy was he miffed when I asked if a stiffer dose of Naxcel might be better! Lesson learned! When I went to the second vet and got the Naxcel, I asked him if he was comfortable with me asking for or suggesting things that I've learned & he said he was totally comfortable with that. He's always been good that way with my dogs and cats and he's 15 min from home as opposed to an hour for the other guy. So... this is my long way of saying I think I may have a solution to the vet dilemma and I'll probably be asking more questions in the future! I really do appreciate the help.