Doe down! please help me troubleshoot

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by kidsngarden, Apr 19, 2008.

  1. kidsngarden

    kidsngarden New Member

    723
    0
    0
    Gloria is 5 years old, french alpine nubian, due to kid may 1st. Feed is local, free choice alfalfa pellets, 1 cup of whole oats, minerals (but they hate the new kind I bought and haven't touched it in a week!) She has been out for browse daily (4-5 hours) the last 2-3 weeks.

    Last worming Feb 18 with 1 cc quest (concentrated cydectin) Cd&T in October 07 (previous owner)

    Regular temp is 102.1 Temp today is 100.1. She has seemed totally fine yesterday. Then today I went to let the girls out to browse and everyone came to greet me but her. she was down in the goat shed, I think I am going to try harder to get her to stand, when I tried earlier is was some pulling on the collar but I didn't realy TRY. Runny nose, boogery eyes, kinda drooling. Rattly breathing.

    Have not seen her actually poop today, but around the shed and goat pen I saw no abnormal stools and her rear is clean so I think she is ok in that area thus far.

    Last night we had a sudden cold snap with SNOW (hello! It's APRIL!!!) temps overnight have been in low to mid 40's recently and last night they had dropped to low 30's. don't know if that makes a difference.

    I gave her 3.5 cc bose sub q.

    I was thinking pneumonia, but the temp is LOW.

    I have biomycin (injectable), penicillin, and some tetracycline (powder) on hand. I am out of probios, but I was already heading to town for a feed run so I will get some more.

    Any clues here???
     
  2. ellie

    ellie New Member

    350
    0
    0
    Bethany,

    the low temp is the giveaway. She is most likely hypocalcemic. Call your vet and get some injectable CMPK then read about hypocalcemia...bet there's something in the files here, or go to saanendoah.com, there's an excellent article, but get calcium in her immediately or she will die. Once they are down it;s critical!

    Ellie
     

  3. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    A low temp can also indicate shock or organ failure/system shutting down from pneumonia. That is my guess.

    Sara
     
  4. kidsngarden

    kidsngarden New Member

    723
    0
    0
    "My" vet is me!!! I have tried to establish a relationship with a vet, but have yet to have to call one. The only other time a doe of mine was sick it was too late.... I was able to persuade one of the few livestock vets to get me BoSe for a kid born last year. I will try to get the CMPK...I was looking for it online, but they don't sell the injectable.

    I thought her feeding has been so good! I have been really concentrating on good feed management to keep from hypocalcemia, so I did not even consider it!

    So if it is pneumonia then what do I do? Should I go out and give her biomycin or pen right away while I try to get the CMPK???
     
  5. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    Do you have any way to get a better antibiotic? Perhaps Naxcel? You need to give her Banamine as well. Probios, b vitamins, IV fluids (sub q).

    Sara
     
  6. ellie

    ellie New Member

    350
    0
    0
    Personally, I do not think it could be pneumonia without a higher temp, not lower, so IMHO I wouldn't waste money on antibiotics when all the indicators are for something metabolic. Given her due date, I'd be guessing on calcium...CMPK is Rx for the injectable. here's another thread on here re hypocalcemia, tho I have not read it...
    Ellie
     
  7. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    Thanks for your opinion ellie. However, I have seen the EXACT same symptoms Bethany described (including the low temp) due to pneumonia.

    I'm not saying it isn't a calcium issue, just that is could VERY well be something other than what you are saying. I would be treating this doe aggressively for BOTH scenarios. Not worrying about 'wasting money' on antibiotics.

    My opinion of course.

    Sara
     
  8. kidsngarden

    kidsngarden New Member

    723
    0
    0
    My clueless gut says pneumonia too because of the respitory symptoms. I have read the threads on hypocalcemia as well as pneumonia.

    My husband says no way to getting a vet out here and I have to agree. This is a doe that is not worth much on our farm. she is part of our backyard herd we are getting rid of and replacing with Goats from Tracy's herd. If it were a doe from our new herd then I would most certainly be getting a vet out here, but right now it is not realistic for us to put a large investment to save this doe. We would rather put her down if we have too. I am very willing to try to get the meds necessary to save her, but getting a vet out here (she is not getting up at) for her just does not make good business sense.

    I have a call into the vet. The receptionist was not kind. I also have calls in to some other goat folks for CMPK, but I have had to leave messages.

    I'm very frustrated with this whole vet thing. how do I get a relationship with one??? You only need one in emergencies it seems and in this case it is not worth it, but I certainly want a vet available with the new herd!
     
  9. kidsngarden

    kidsngarden New Member

    723
    0
    0
    Also, if this is viral pneumonia (since it's not a high temp...?) what about my two other does I have with her. What is the pre-emptive strike I need to take for them?


    ETA, Well duh, if it was viral then we wouldn't need antibiotics, huh? Or do I need to worry anyway?
     
  10. I'd suggest something like Naxcel or Nuflor. Kaye would be a good one to ask. I'd also do calcium, B viatimins, keep her watrm with a coat on, and warm drinks, subq fluids if necessary.
    Hope she pulls through.
    Becky
     
  11. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

    1,289
    1
    0
    Bethany,

    Re: vet. Where in Washington are you? There are quite a few good goat breeders in WA and they know who the good goat vets are.
    Perhaps we can help you find one near you.

    If you can't get the big hitter drugs, just start with the biomyicin and try to hydrate. Supportive care like Becky suggests.

    Camille
     
  12. SherrieC

    SherrieC Active Member

    1,466
    0
    36
    Isn't the lady with Rocky Run Saanens in Wa? Pat in Napavine Wa, is that anywhere near you.
     
  13. susie

    susie New Member

    279
    0
    0
    Beth I sent you an e-mail

    Susie in Auburn, WA
     
  14. kidsngarden

    kidsngarden New Member

    723
    0
    0
    Well here's a good thing that has come out of this...I have found a VET!!! not one that laughed at me either!!! AND he got me some CMPK.

    I did not have my list when he called (I had left my cell and he called back on my way into town to get the probios, etc. and forgot about asking for lactated ringers and the antibiotic...My mind was just crazy I think. Now I have no way to get her IV fluids. she did take a sip of molasses water, but not much. when I'm done with this chaos I would love the link to where to actually buy lactated ringers online and how the heck to use them.

    I raced around to 3 different feed stores and not one had probios. I guess everyone is having issues at once or something - who knows!!! Grrrr. It's Ironic I just orderd it from jeffers. I do have yogurt and will try to get that down her.

    I've given her 6 cc of Biomycin. 30 cc of CMPK both sub q. Poor thing...little bubbles all over that probably hurt like heck! In sue reiths post about hypocalcemia it said 30 cc CMPK subq every 2 hours day and night. Then I read in a thread somewhere else that you can give the first dose higher - 70 cc?

    She is bawling a bit now. and she tries to lean up against me like she wants to cuddle. I think the bose gave her a bit of something. When I left she was pretty unresponsive, like we weren't even there. She had turned herself all around in the pen by the time we got back.

    I am very worried about the lack of IV fluids at this point...any tricks to get her to drink???

    so do I give her 30 more cc cmpk in two hours? when do I give her more BoSe and Biomycin?

    Thanks to everyone who is trying to help!
     
  15. Chaty

    Chaty New Member

    398
    0
    0
    You can order lactated ringers from www.thegoatstore.com which is Hoeggers and thats where I get mine sometimes, I dont know if Jeffers has them or not cant remember. The yogurt is good for her and mine love the fruit type, cant get the plain in them. I hope she makes it for you and I would keep up the CMPK till she is better.
     
  16. kidsngarden

    kidsngarden New Member

    723
    0
    0
    If jeffer's has lactated ringers I'm going to spit! I just placed an order on Thursday!!!! I feel so stupid. One more thing to add to my list! Then I'm reviewing all you have said here and seeing that Sarah said Banamine too. Don't have that either...blast!

    Her temp a little over 80 minutes past meds is now 100.4. Not much of an improvement, but at least not lower. When I took her temp I noticed some new berries there so stools are still good.

    I gave her 3 12ml syringes of yogurt by having my husband hold her mouth open while I squirted it in the back. she swallowed it all. I did that about 5-6 times with molasses water too, but then I wondered if she would aspirate it??? She didn't seem gag or gasp or anything. Can I continue to give her water like this throughout the evening?

    She is still down, but moving more. I've covered her with a blanket. going to be a long night if I'm giving her shots every two hours!

    If this is hypocalcemia, what about my other does who have been fed the same way? Shall I check thier temps? I think I might. They are all due the same time as Gloria.

    Also The vet said I have two day shelf life once I started using the CMPK. So can I just keep it out of the fridge since it needs to be administered RT?

    Thanks again,
     
  17. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

    2,730
    0
    0
    With pneumonia that is so bad that the goat is down, I prefer Nuflor or Excenel to Biomycin. Your vet can sell you some of that. I always like to keep a bottle on hand as well as a bottle of Banamine. When we have had goats down, we keep hay nearby so they can eat and bring them a bucket of warm water. You do need to be careful when syringing water into a goat, especially one that already has respiritory problems. Good luck with your girl. Kathie
     
  18. kidsngarden

    kidsngarden New Member

    723
    0
    0
    Ok..I've made another list, lactated ringers, nuflor or excenel, and banamine (need that for dsibudding anyway!)

    Well, I'm not sure what she has, but she appears to be on the mend. gave her her second dose of CMPK about 2.5 hours after the first, little more yogurt, and more molasses water via syringe. Her temp was 102!!!! YEAH! but she is still not up.

    When I brought my other does thier bit of grain and minerals (bought a new kind today they like better, but my local feed guy is looking to get tech master for me....) she was looking over and straining her head like, "hey! I want some!" but she still didn't get up. So I mixed a tiny bit with alfalfa pellets and gave it to her and she gobbled it right up. Gave her a bit of hay, but she didn't touch it. Then she sipped some molasses water all on her own! WOO HOO! Still not enough for my liking so I gave her more via syringe again.

    Breathing is much improved...much less rattling, but still not normal. I think she likes her warm blanket too and it's getting cold out there too.

    When should I give my next dose of Biomycin in case is is pneumonia? Morning?