DNA

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by ecftoggs, Nov 27, 2007.

  1. ecftoggs

    ecftoggs New Member

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    I hesitate to start a thread on this because it seems to polarize breeders. Maybe we can discuss DNA testing on it's own merits without getting into if it should be required by a registery or not.
    Whim brought up some good points from the genetic defects thread: (I condensed some of this as I copied from Whim's post)

    " Please don't get offended by what I'm about to say, because I'm not directing this at anybody.
    I don't have a problem with DNA'ing goats for whatever reason, but are we gonna be willing to not breed that MCH doe if it is discovered that she has a defect like congenital heart conditions. Are we headed for the day when our registry's refuse to register offspring of goats with known defects.? What worries me I guess is that we humans tend to over react, and start discriminating against others when we think we can reach an object of perfection with anything.
    One person comes to mind in a quest like this, and that is Hitler......as he tried to apply similar type principles to the human race.
    What happens to those of us who can't afford, or for other reasons, don't want to have our goats DNA'd ?"

    What defects would we as breeders like to have tracked? Is it going too far in manipulating nature? Are there traits that would be economically feasable to trace and test for?
    Since I don't know of any specific motions before ADGA (maybe all goat assoc.) at this time, let's not get into that but discuss the merits of DNA in the context of individual breeders.
    Tim
     
  2. One good merit of course would be milk production or I suppose the amount of build a meat goat would have. We're not meat goats so I have no clue on that, but from what I've been collecting information wise is that if Lindsey wanted to improve her line on Alpine's she would have to select a doe with high yeild and breed the son of that high yeild doe to her alpine now, hope for a doeling, and then rebreed that doeling to another high yeild history buck. I think thats correct. :??? This would be a DNA merit, yes, and management (I understand this point too).
     

  3. Odeon

    Odeon New Member

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    Isn't this what we are doing anyway, by being breeders? We are already selectively breeding for specific traits. Being able to weed out lines based on their DNA is just another step.

    Ken
     
  4. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    We already do both of these things...not in the same association but through each respective assn.
    ADGA= milk production records, http://adgagenetics.org/YieldSearch.asp, bucks that rank high in PTA's from Daughters and dam's with records.
    The meat goat reg. do it with buck testing stations. Texas A&M and Langston already have it in place. Beef breeds in cattle do it through feed lot and at testing stations.

    Now, for DNA....right now, it's a matter of being able to definitely say that buck produced that kid, or that semen is from that buck. Pedigree integrity, has been *bantered* about a lot. ??Me...?? I'd like to see it used more by breeders to assure me I am getting semen on the buck I bought. Yes, there will be multitudes of straws used that will never be tested...BUT, when it is tested...I would expect it to be who it is suppose to be. Or when used for parentage verification to assure the buyer, kid is who it's claimed to be. It has it's place in any breed registery. Now, for mandatory...still weighing both sides of that issue. ;)
    Kaye
     
  5. Knotneer

    Knotneer New Member

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    Genetic defects in livestock have enough of an economic impact to discourage breeding affected or carrier animals. Denying registration has an economic impact on the registries too, and I know of only one that has tried to implement a denial policy based on genetic defect.

    In practice, most registries have opted to inform breeders/owners and have non-mandatory testing for genetic defects. For example, dairy AI vendors offer bulls that are known carriers of genetic defects, but have other excellent traits. The defect code is listed right with the bull name. Breeders can then make informed decisions.

    The Quarter Horse registry is having a big issue with a dominant metabolic defect that can cause tremor and grand mal seizures- and the heavy muscling that wins at shows. All affected horses trace their pedigrees back to one highly influencial halter stallion, Impressive. The AQHA does print disclosures on the descendants' pedigrees, but plans to deny registration to intact carriers have been met with great resistance by some breeders- those horses still win in halter. But the economic value of Impressive descendants in the broader market has plummeted. Most people do not want a horse that could randomly fall on them and throw a fit.

    Weeeellll.... let's see. Most of us allow elite, specially selected individuals to reproduce- and not with the mate of their choice- and kill or sterilize the others. Deformed or imperfect newborns may not be given heroic treatment. Individuals who become unproductive through disease or injury are often killed. The big, big difference, of course, is that animals are not people. (Elsa-doe still wants hugs tho)

    Despite some of the "domino effect" posters on other lists, I don't believe ADGA will ever require mandatory DNA on every animal registered. The net loss of registrations would be greater than the gain and there are enough large volume breeders on the board to prevent that.
    I'm surprised that DNA is not used more, especially to verify parents on high end bucklings. We all know that 1) a goat will eventually escape and 2) does are ho's. All those Experimentals are coming from somewhere, and it's not caused by a Lute shortage.
     
  6. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    ,
    This is HYPP ( hyperkalemic periodic paralysis) and I did have a mare that had Impressive as a Sire. She was blood tested NEG/NEG and it was applied to her papers. Now,
    By testing the mare...and her being N/N, her foal (from a unrelated sire) did not have to be tested and I saved myself $40. So, it does pay to get in on the ground floor of lots of things. ;)
    Kaye
     
  7. ecftoggs

    ecftoggs New Member

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    This is where I think a big advantage to dairy goats would be. In so many other species breeders are using DNA tests to back up their breeding stock quality.
    I sat in on a sheep meeting where they were talking about breeder's who were not testing for the DNA susceptabilty for Scrapie. The breeder's there were adamant about not testing as being unresponsible.
    Tim
     
  8. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    Did you know that ANY AQHA mare or stallion used for breeding purposes, MUST be DNA'ed before a foals' reg. will be accepted?? I don't think the $40 cost stopped one person from breeding or registering.
    I do think however, that if DNA were required...it would mean a lot of bucks that NEED to be wethers, would be.
    We've (DH & I) have looked at many stallions and both have asked ourselves.."And he's still a stud, WHY? "
    There's also some bucks that could get this same question asked after seeing offspring.
    :blush sorry, I'm getting off into never-land with other species.
    Kaye
     
  9. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    I would like to make one observation here.......There is a huge difference between spending $40 bucks on a mare that sells from $3 to $5000 , and a goat that on a good day might bring $3 to $500 . I've stated this before on here from time to time, that I've worked for and been acquainted with a lot of "rich" folks in this state......most of them had horses or were closely associated with horses in one form or another. I don't recall any of them that owned goats, or had any use for a goat. I suspect that if the truth could be known, that most of us goat owners and breeders are in much much lower income bracket, meaning that every $20 that we have to spend on our animals is hard earned and possibly takes away from other areas that we should spend the money on.
    I think that the use of DNA is exciting and will lead to many break through in learning how life is formed and developed with time.
    I do however think that using DNA to somehow make shortcuts in achieving better life forms is almost a waste of time. There is a natural progression that takes place here on earth, and some call it the "circle of life", some call it evolution, and some call it survival of the fittest. Either way, skipping steps in this natural progression that allows us to do things like build immunities to deseases, develop lungs that are resistant to modern day pollutions, and so on, is kinda like cheating the clock. At least at my house, that clock on the wall hasn't been cheated out of one second of any day that I've lived here.

    There was a statement made in another post about using DNA to "weed out lines",......and after giving that statement considerable thought, I've until yet been able to figure out how such a thought does anything to promote the goat industry. I can only assume that they believe that they own a "line" that would not be weeded out.
    Yea , I'm kinda old fashioned, but I'm proud of it........I still find satisfaction in determining whether a doe is a good milker or not, by putting my hand on her teats and squeezing, and then measuring how much she can milk in a pail, and for how many days she can do it. I still enjoy the anticipation of not knowing what colors or sex that my kids will be before they hit the ground. I eagerly await the FF of a doe to see what kind of udder that she is going to have. I love to see that old buck top them doe's, and be assured that he will be the sire of the kids that come out of her. You see, I really don't care to skip steps on any of these things, because I enjoy every minute of it, and eagerly await the challenges ahead.
     
  10. Knotneer

    Knotneer New Member

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    Hey Kaye, have you read fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com ? Good stuff.

    //now back to our regularly scheduled thread...
     
  11. Odeon

    Odeon New Member

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    Whim, since it's only obvious you were referring to my post, I would like to expand on my statement. There are specific lines (at least in the breeds that I have worked with) that are pre-potent for both good and in some cases, extremely bad, traits. DNA testing could someday help breeders make more educated breeding decisions. This is not much different than currently choosing an AI sire based on his progeny's DHIA records, or appraisal scores.

    Ken
     
  12. Gabe

    Gabe New Member

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    Whim i like your statement very much :D
    I'm also old fashioned and think that most defects are limited in it self, if not some breeder try to save every kid that is born. :rolleyes
    And still, in my opinion, DNA is a great tool for individual breeder. Unfortunately it also looks like to be need it, to proof the integrity of some individuals. How sad is that.
     
  13. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    I so much more agree with you on this statement Ken. DNA used as another tool in the box in trying to achieve a "better bred" animal is an exciting idea for me. With that said, what worries me is that in that quest of some making things of this nature mandatory, it will exclude many of us financially from participating in the goat registered industry. Now for me at this time, it would cost me about $300 to get all my goats DNA mapped, and even though I would struggle to pay that extra cost to my small herd, I could do it. But think about some of these folks that own upwards of a 100 goats. That amounts to considerable $$$ each year added to the cost keeping their herd. Mapping all those kids every year will put a lot of folks out of business. If DNA mapping puts people out of the business, then what have we actually achieved in this quest.

    I love the idea of being able to use DNA mapping to avoid certain defects in my breeding program here, but I think most of us would prefer to do such things as time and money allows us to.
    I'd like to dream that someday, out of my no-name herd, that I will raise a goat that will be a foundation of goats for years to come, but if that don't happen, what have I lost? . I enjoy the time that I have with these buggers, so I consider this time well spent. I figure that I haven't missed out on making much money with these animals, because lets face it, there just ain't that much money to be made start with. So at my house, what am I missing by not having a DNA map of my herd......very little.

    With that also said; I will be the first to stand up for your rights to use DNA results in your breeding programs, and as you can afford to, I would challenge you to do so. Your results could be a benefit to the goat industry as a whole, and not just the elite among us. There is strength in numbers, so being inclusive under certain rules and regs. will be to the betterment of any group, rather than being exclusive to just the few who can afford it.
     
  14. Odeon

    Odeon New Member

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    Just for the "record" Mandatory DNA Typing on ALL goats has not been addressed by the DNA or AI committees in ADGA. (I am on the DNA committee, and I currently chair the AI committee). There are individuals who may have their own opinions, but as a group, this has not been addressed. I only bring this up because one of the main concerns I hear regarding DNA typing is that ADGA is trying to push for it to eventually be mandatory accross the board, and this is not the case.

    Ken
     
  15. Kaye White

    Kaye White New Member

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    AMEN!! I do have a clue *WHERE* this started from and again it is hysteria. :rolleyes Some of which, do not even use AI, nor any of the other ADGA programs.

    I agree that it is another *tool* that will not be used by all....but for those of us that feel *safer* using semen from DNA'ed bucks I can relate to it being implemented.

    ,
    Not nowdays!! My goats sell for more than most people are getting for good bred mares & colts. :(
    Kaye
     
  16. coso

    coso Guest

    JMO, If you are going to have your bucks collected and market it to other breeders, I think that DNA testing should be done. There is just so much of a domino effect on some of these heavily used bucks and so much money involved I just think it should be done. If someone pays $100 a straw or more for semen, most would like to know for sure it was from the buck its' supposed to be from. I don't know what kind of precautions are taken by collectors to insure the right buck is brought out and confirmed, but I know there has been some trouble with this because of chatter on the boards. I think it will come to a point sometime if you are going to sell breeding stock bucks and the breeder wants to get the money they are worth out of them they are going to have to be DNA tested. I don't think it should be mandatory for every registered goat to be DNA d' as stated above though I don't think that was ever a "real" issue just hype. There are breeders (Kaye being one) I would have no doubt about buying semen or bucks from. But there are a lot of breeders out there you like there lines but just don't know them well enough to be sure about there ethics.
     
  17. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I do think we will one day have DNA typing of all AI sires. DNA typing of all colorama and spotlight sale animals and eventually DNA typing of all bucks sold or used on outside breedings. This would still give the opportunity to register and use your own bucklings.

    CAE testing is now mandatory for spotlight sale and colorama sale animals, back even 10 years ago nobody would have believed that would happen either.

    I get sick to death of the poor goat owner argument. As more and more DNA testing is done costs will go down like all other testing, and what our directors OK ed at convention this year is nothing...nothing because a small handful of people even will use the random DNA sampling program anyway, so the idea that this random sampling of bucklings doesn't even merit a job well done. It was just a do something, better than nothing nod. It would be nice if a director wouldn't go to their first meeting and get castrated in line as they walk in the door to convention.

    I don't remember off hand but when I asked the amount of DNA animals done last year with the tweaked program of verifying not just getting it done and accepting it like we were doing, wrong or not...was a tiny tiny number.



    Whim....you going to come buy a $1500 buckling from me...you only have my word that this buck is out of whom I say he is. At some point should you be able to have something more than just my word? How about an $800 buck. $500? Shoot at some point just because I want to use certain bloodlines, I would be willing to pay the $90 to DNA test that buck to make sure he is out of whom you say he is if I pay $350!

    I have purchased alot of goats, there are breeders who I wouldn't touch their animals because of ethical problems I know of now, I certainly didn't know them as a new person enquiring about their goats.

    I am sitting on $200 worth of deposits for $1600 worth of bucklings sold in March off one doe. Really think that all breeders are going to be ethical and not pretend when the buck isn't born that he isn't out of the better doe? After I deal with the G6S issue in my herd with testing, DNA will be next. I think both will be tools that customers will appreciate, even paying the extra amounts for testing.

    I feel for, really I do those with pets, but this should be a business when you are raising livestock. And it makes no business sense to use animals in a breeding program you are "hopeing" you picked a good person to purchase from. Hopeing is ridiculous.

    ADGA is really far behind with all of this, Lynn Fleming wrote an excellent reply to this, I really wish I would have kept it.

    And yes to answer your question. I have a G6S carrier, and carrier kids out of her will be destroyed. Just like my double teated or parrot mouth kids. Vicki
     
  18. Odeon

    Odeon New Member

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    Vicki,

    Below is Lynn's post regarding DNA typing... As I mentioned, it is just our pedigree's folks.. If accuracy and integrity in our pedigrees mean that little to you, then we might as well just write them out on Napkins and call it good.

    Vicki, this has also opened my eyes as who whom I would not want to purchase from!

    Ken

    ____

    Re: [NubianTalk] DNA typing being required



    At the risk of jumping in here a little late and possibly restating that
    which someone else has said...I have been unable to read all of the large
    volume of posts this thread has generated, and was trying to resist posting,
    but my hands hurt from clenching them, so here goes.

    I was on the artificial insemination committee for a couple of years, but
    was not this past year. Below is a snip from a post I wrote to the
    committee chair, George Altheide and the rest of the committee over 2 years
    ago in August of 2005:

    "but ADGA remains in the dark ages of animal reproduction. There are not
    many species left that do not require DNA typing of at least sires, and many
    require (and have for years) typing of dams as well. There are a myriad of
    reasons for requiring typing which I will not go into here. I will repeat
    what I said to this committee last year, and several will remember...If a
    buck is worth collecting, he is worth protecting, and DNA typing is
    protection for the owner of the buck, the purchaser of the semen and the
    owner of any future offspring. Plain and simple."

    Claims of poverty just don't cut it. If he isn't worth an additonal $30 to
    DNA type, he certainly should not be collected. You only collected him for
    insurance? Fine, then you are spending that money on a gamble that he will
    one day prove that he is worth it..how is the additional $30 any more or
    less of a gamble than the $3 or so per straw that you are investing?

    I saw Barbie Hoyt( not to single you out Barbie, but I did read your post at
    least..lol) say that an additional $30 would keep folks in her area of AR
    from buying bucks. I thought we were talking about bucks to be collected in
    Nina's original post, so that $30 would not be required of them. If they
    decide their buck is worth collecting, then they will h ave to pay the money
    later when they decide to collect him.

    Far from acting like sheep Nina, we should have been leaders in the field of
    animal genetics, but instead, we are WAY too late for that, and at this
    rate, even the sheep will have us beat. At the moment, we aren't even in the
    same pasture.

    Lynn

    Lynn Fleming
    Lynnhaven
    Pine Bush, NY
    http://www.lynnhavennubians.com
     
  19. ecftoggs

    ecftoggs New Member

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    Wow, this is good discussion. I am glad that it is not degenerating into a screaming match where opinions are not appreciated.
    I too struggle with the money issue, Togg bucks are not nearly worth as much as Nubians. But, I agree that being able to assure to a buyer that the animals pedigree is a we represent it has value. We do a lot of AI and most of the bucklings we sell are from these matings. I do feel that most of our buyers are the type who have had to save in order to purchase our animals, it would be the right thing to do to back them up.
    We are way behind on this. I think good discussion as to what the dairy goat's needs are and a look at what other species have done good or bad, could allow us to catch up.
    Tim
     
  20. Odeon

    Odeon New Member

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    I also, am not made of money, but I have decided to start typing my bucks in 2008. If that means I sell a kid I had planned on keeping, or attend one less show to pay for it, then that is what I will need to do.

    We all must make up our own minds... but I think we all have a responsibility to uphold the integrity of our pedigrees. I sometimes think goat-breeders are their own worst enemies... Until we begin to take ourselves more seriously.... no one else will! I personally am sick of the looks I get when I tell others in the AG industry that I am a goat breeder!

    Ken