I had a doe that was bottle raised, FF this year that decided to start delivering before I could get home from work. She had one on the ground licking it off and the second one stuck. I was too preoccupied with the stuck one to make her quit cleaning the first. I pulled the kids though and bottle raised them, so don't know if she would have kept up the motherly attentions, but I do think she would have.

BTW, most kids are kept on the bottle/lambar for at least 12 wks. I have two doelings that are 3 and 4 months old still on the lambar. Six wks seems VERY early to have weaned her. No wonder she was a tiny thing when you got her.

 

I agree that 6 weeks is way too young, and I'm sure that's why she was so small when I got her. Her baby from last year was a lovely big solid fellow, so I'm pretty sure she's stunted vs being a small doe. Her mother was a good size as was her father. I have a few does by this buck and they're all reasonable sizes. I do find they take a little longer to mature out though. I like to keep my babies on milk until they're about 5 months if possible.

 

I can't say I've seen a difference. I bottle raise now but dam raised a few years ago. The worst mother I had was dam raised herself, but would never nurse her kids unless I held her still. This year I tried to leave a pair of meat bucklings on their dam (who was dam raised) and she would barely take them....meanwhile my 3 yr old and 5 yr old (both bottle raised) each stole a kid from her and happily nursed them!! (Did I mention I no longer dam raise :crazy) So for me it has almost been the opposite.

 

Kerry

I think you raise an interesting subject. For all practical purposes, everything on this planet survives and lives under the "use it or loose it" program. It is very likely that in the years to come, that many unnatural practices that are used today, will become programmed into the generations to follow.
There is a very natural evolution (not creative evolution) process that is taking place every day with every living thing. Sporadic interuptions in that process with the minority seem to have little effect even in long term existence of particulate species. However, we do known that constant interuptions in the majority with enough time, will/can have a significant impact on the future of there existence, and the way that they respond to different conditions.
Is it likely that we are already seeing significant impact of what might be considered unnatural behavior within our goat herds because of human interuption ? Probably, but maybe only to some small degree at this point in time.
Time will only tell how much impact we are having on the goat populations by bottle raising, AI, or trying to find immunization through the point of a needle, instead of receiving it the natural way.
In your case with that doe.....well, some moms are just duds to start with. In the natural world, her kids would all die.....then she would die....and none of those detrimental traits get passed on to future generations.


Whim

 

I have dam raised does. They have freshened once. One doe had quads, and happily cleaned off one little buckling and I arrived to find another buckling dead and a buckling and a doeling shivering and soaking wet, so I had to clean them up. It took about 4 days, going out every 4 hours around the clock, to get her to nurse her kids. (So your 2 days doesn't sound bad to me at all! ) She eventually did, but was never a terribly attentive mother. She weaned her doeling when I took her bucklings away, and she prefers me to milk her.

My other doe, also dam raised and the first one's sister, didn't clean up her kids (same reaction--what are these things??!?) and also took quite a bit of time (maybe a week? ..and lots more fighting) to get her kids to nurse. (we were pretty sleep deprived in April!) She became a very doting mom, though. She's still nursing a doeling and prefers her doe to take the milk rather than me. She'll let me milk her, but not completely--she kicks off the inflations when I've had enough so she can save some for her daughter! (I tell her when I've had enough--and not until both sides are even, thankyouverymuch, so stand still while I put this inflation back on!)

I think each animal, like each person, is going to be a little bit different. While I definitely see Whim's point above about natural selection and evolution (glad he clarified, not creative evolution ) I also believe that goats have been domesticated for quite some time. Heck, Adam and Eve were charged w/caring for creation, and this could very well have included goat midwifery, nursing, etc. Not to get too "religious" on a public forum, but as humans, we are given the mandate to take dominion and subdue the earth. A lot of this (naturally selecting the fittest, pulling kids and bottle raising, etc.) are all just choices in how we want to take dominion. Certainly we can have our preferences, but to say that one method is more moral? Not sure that case can be made... Some pretty good arguments on each side, so probably best to leave it as a matter of preference.

 

I haven't seen a difference. In fact in my herd, two of my best mothers were bottle raised! And my one doe that I have to keep away from her babies for a few hours or so because she paws them out of her excitement, was dam raised (at least I figure since she was wild).

 

We have found bottle-fed FF to have trouble knowing what to do with their kids. Much like the example you gave. We also notice that they are especially nervous and cry a lot for the closest thing they had as a mom, which was whomever did the most bottle feeding! I could not go outside for the first week without being seen and bellowed for like the end of the FF's goat life was going to end!
That is how it is here, but I have heard some others that have no problems with it.....

 

I have dam and bottle raised does and no difference in their mothering instinct however like Whim mentioned some does are just duds and doesn't matter if dam or bottle raised she isn't going to raise her own kids. A very hard delivery can change a doe also to where she doesn't want anything to do with those little buggers that caused pain. This is why most of us are there with freshenings so we can take the kids when needed. Tim has a good article in Goat 101 on dam raising

 

It is not a moral issue at all, because we do have authority over our animals. I'm talking about a foot print issue in the sense of the original poster's question, or frame of thinking here.

Have we humans made significant improvements in making the goat a more useful/versatile animal for us to all gain from ?.....sure we have. The problem with us modern day humans is that we often miss seeing the whole scope of things, and invent things that make improvements that are not much more than skin deep. We live in the moment without giving much regards to the future.

In the sense that we are talking about here with goats, we are mostly reaping the benefits now of the breeders that have went on before us, and it will be our turn to have a significant impact on the breeders that come after us. Since it takes time/generations to develop certain traits, most often we only get to see small changes in our short period of time. Older breeders like Tim Pruitt are blessed to have had an extended look at how one thing can impact the other when it comes to breeding goats. Not only has Tim gained knowledge throughout the years, he has also gained wisdom in how to best use it to accomplish his goals.

As I consider Tim a friend, I'm sure he won't mind me using him as this example. Somebody like Tim who has been in this for several years now, will have a significant impact on the Nubian breed of dairy goat for generations to come. Tim's personal influence on the breed will still be around years and decades after Tim is dead and gone. A herd reputation has been, and will continue to be developed at Tim's place as long as he breeds animals. Every aspect of Tim's management, whether it is animal selection for genetic traits, or other selective programs, will impact the generations to come out of his bloodlines there. If I know Tim, and know how proud he could be of standing on the big stage with a national champion with his herd name on it, I really think he would say that there would be no greater complement than one day have a great grand child to say.....paw paw sure knew what he was doing way back when he did this, this, and this.

My point is that certain herds develop certain reputations in time. Just like today, there are several breeders who absolutely won't breed to certain bloodlines from years gone by because the string has a reputation of some sort that seems to follow them from generation to generation.
So, I say do it any way you want to......you just keep in mind that your choices today will impact tomorrow in some form or fashion.....even if you think it's insignificant right now.

Whim

 

Thanks everyone for your opinion. I'm inclined to think that it's just this doe. She's fabulous now, very attentive mother - happy to feed them and look after them. I had two dam raised FF's kid yesterday and they've taken to it like old hands. Most of my older saanens are all bottle raised and I haven't had an issue with their mothering ability either.

I'm off to check out goat 101, thanks Sondra

 

Kerry-hi- we have always dam raised and also we have freshened all but a very few of does born here and they vary some in how quickly they take to mothering. I have culled for that and sent primadonnas off to be dairy girls at homes where they just milk so I am backing off of the normal dairy breeding in that way. If you want to dam raise you need dams that WILL! This does make weaning a challenge sometimes! Glad this girl has kicked in for you.


Kandace we have laughed at our girls hollering for help too- like they are saying- come get this baby - what am I sposed to do with it! It used to really bother me and I thought something was truly the matter but after seeing it so many times-now it is comical.

Whim....don't make me think about such heavy duty stuff so early in the morning! Evolution is no longer happening in the true science sense of the word because we are controlling what survives including genetic lines that would have died out without human interference. This is true across the spectrum of living things. We have taken 'dominion' and with responses geared for our own uneducated random impulsive selfish wants - not for the betterment of the world.
Lee

 

:rofl :rofl :rofl Yep Lee.....somewhere around here in the Whim's book of Technically Twisted Terminology (also known as T,T &T) the term used for what you're talking about is ..... devilution.


Sorry for goofing with your thread a little bit Kerry. I woke up this morning and didn't find my name in the obituary section of the paper, so I said why not just go ahead and enjoy life a little bit today.

Whim

 

Whim, your posts are truely enjoyable. I spent yesterday thinking about the relation of humans to animals pre-fall vs. post-fall and wondering when and how "wild" animals developed. That, and thinking surely my children followed suit when I wasn't looking...!

 

I have both dam raised and bottle raised, have both types of does, (alpine) and none have ever refused a kid, even the FF's who were bottlefed from minute one. I think it's much more to do with the doe than how she was raised...unless of course she was malnurished, abused, etc. At kidding time, hormones and instincts really kick in, just like at breeding time. Some does have better of both.

 

Man o man between ttt and wturkey you ARE a mess!
Are you by any chance doctoring BEFORE you get the flu????

L~

 

I never noticed a difference between the bottle and dam raised does when they kidded. Some of my dam raised ones are horrid mothers as FF, while some of the BB were super moms as FF. I think it's the individual doe more than how they were raised.

 

:laughcry Well......I have been listening to Vicki talk about prevention a lot you know.

As far as the dam raising, bottle raising, mothering instinct thing........I really don't think sporadic interuptions in the natural process will cause significant change. But just like the way of the modern day laying hen breeds not having a setting instinct anymore, I think it would be very likely over a long period of time that one could set patterns in the realm of domestication with goats.

We know that for every action, that there is an equal and opposite reaction. We know that physical action causes living things to bend and warp in time, and these bends and warps in genetics links can be passed on to the offspring causing the offspring to display certain traits and habits. In otherwords with this, as each generational doeling naturally nurses her dam, an action is occurring that can create an instinctive/genetic pattern that will follow.

It may be evolution by selective human intervention, but as long as it still has the ability to change/adapt over time, it is evolving.

To sum up my line of thinking, or to express some concern about the way we interupt some things that we mess around with.......it would be an absolute shame if goats were to loose many of their natural instincts that have made them one of the most versatile animals on the face of the earth. I can just see my great great grand kids buying a milk doe some day that comes with a tag that says, she must be AI'd every breeding because there are no bucks left with the natural instinct to breed, or that every kid must be pulled at birth and bottle fed because the dam will not know to let it nurse naturally.

Burp,

Whim

 

Must be 4 T's
Technically TURKEY Twisted Terminology and maybe 5 since you are so close to TN

 

Whim said: "For all practical purposes, everything on this planet survives and lives under the "use it or loose it" program. It is very likely that in the years to come, that many unnatural practices that are used today, will become programmed into the generations to follow." "Is it likely that we are already seeing significant impact of what might be considered unnatural behavior within our goat herds because of human interuption ? Probably, but maybe only to some small degree at this point in time."

I am not trying to start an argument or anything but aren't these the above descriptions evident in the fact that dairy goats milk gallons a day & do it for 10 months? Or that meat goats carry so much meat on their frames? The chickens not being broody is no different than man selectively breeding for dairy goats to produce milk for more than four months, producing a gallon plus a day, or for slim dairy does that put all their calories in to their milk instead of storing them for the hard winter. Those are traits we choose to continue in our animals for more production. Broody hens do not lay eggs, so breeding that out of our egg layers is no worse than us breeding for good, strong, big, udders on does that milk for months and months. AI breeding still relies on the bucks natural desire to mount a female goat and the female goats ability to carry her young to delivery. Bottle babies still reply or their innate desire to suck, bump, & compete for milk. Dams produce milk and allow us to milk them due to innate instincts and desires. These are natural instincts we use to our advantage aren't they?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but I see most all domestic animals as examples of how man has done something great by interfering with an animals natural breeding. Without that we wouldn't have goats/sheep/cattle/pigs to eat, milk, or get fiber from. No dogs to guard our herds, herd our flocks, etc. The real problem, as I see it, comes when the animals we bred no longer serves a purpose and we choose not to end it's breeding. How many dogs are still bred for their original purpose? How many even have a job anymore? We have begun to breed those traits out of many breeds (Poodles are a great example of that). We no longer use hunting dogs to help us survive. We do not rely on the dog to help put food on our table so his abilities as a hunting dog slowly die out. Few care though because the traits that make him a good hunting dog no longer fit in our society. That level of energy is not appreciated by Joe-Q-Public how doesn't have the time or desire to train & work the dog. High energy ones end up in the shelter and PTS when the low energy ones live in pet homes and reproduce. You can plug a ton of domestic animals in to this equation and see the same problems. The common denominator is that these animals lose their strengths once they no longer serve a purpose.

So, maybe bottle feeding has nothing to do with dams being good mothers or not. Maybe the desire to own, care, raise, be responsible for domestic animals is where this all starts. Maybe once we make that decision we take on the moral responsibility of filling in all the gaps that the animal loses by no longer being a wild animal (supply copper, selenium, proper feed, proper temperatures, help with productivity, births, raising, etc in areas where goats would never choose to live if we didn't force them).

 

we take on the moral responsibility

Excellent stuff!
and true- but the problem in what you outline is that we choose to create an animal that has to have that care and intervention and then they end up with people who don't know anything about it or do not believe it does need that care- esp with dogs- most owners not understanding all you said about dogs but merely drawn by the cute pups- and not just those few mentioned but every domesticated animal. We stopped breeding wonderful personal protection animals for just this reason. People were buying them for status and all the wrong reasons and the animals were misunderstood and it was heartbreaking just like it is when you get that call about a great doe you sold for a home milker along with coaching and 20 sheets of info and a phone number only to go check and find her down and anemic and dying because she is a modern dairy animal in the hands of a person who thinks they eat tin cans and make a gallon of milk doing so.
Then it is abuse of the animals and misuse of our 'dominion'.
So then we have a real moral obligation to place all our animals in perfect situations and that is a heavy load since most are unwilling to cull at birth and there are more animals than good homes for any species you can mention.

I think Whim's point is that there are fears that we will be creating such highly bred and needy animals that only a lab situation and a 'basket of meds each morning' will keep them able to do their job.
Great post PP!
Fun discussion with or without the TTTT.
Lee

 

Lee......you read my mind...... that should scare the heck out of Squidge. Now that I have provoked the mind into thinking about the legacy in the goating world that you will leave behind someday, I will shut up now.

Disclaimer- BTW, I'm not responsible for anyone's Shrink appointments caused from reading this thread.

:crazy Whim

 

Ya know, Whim, in your thread in OT about swine flu, you mentioned "w.turkey" and I'm thinking "what's he mean? is this some turkey he has that he's going to make into soup?" :rofl It wasn't until this thread that I figured out what you meant, when you were asked if you were "medicating" already! :lol :rofl I am really slow sometimes!

 

scare the heck out of Squidge

He's used to it now....33 years later!