Copper Test Results??

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by mill-valley, Nov 11, 2008.

  1. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    I sent in a liver biopsy for copper testing to MSU and just got my results back. Questions are...1) Copper lever was 4 ug/g. Saanendoah "normal" level is 25-150 ppm. "Normal" levels on the MSU lab results are 60-300 ug/g. How do I compare ug/g and ppm? Also I just bolused all my goats middle of September...and this doe is still low? How can I correct this...bolus more at a time, more often, or do nothing? They have a good mineral available.

    2) This was a trace mineral panel and they also tested for Iron, Zinc, Selenium, Cobalt, Molybdenum, and Manganese. Iron was extremely high 3323 ug/g and normal is 250-600 ug/g. Cobalt, Molybdenum, and Manganese are all low as well. Do I do anything with any of these?

    My vet looked at me like I was cuckoo asking for this test....and literally I got the lab report in the mail with no explanation from her. There is an interpretation from the MSU vet basically saying levels are adequate (??) and there is no reason to expect clinical response to increased dietary intake of these minerals. Anyone know of a good source of information on this? I am totally confused.
     
  2. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    ug - Microgram, one millionth of a gram. Also written as ?g.

    for example, 1 ppm is equal to 1 ug/kg,

    Convert grams to mg (milligrams): multiply grams by 1000 mg/g = mg

    Convert mg to ppm in a liquid: divide mg into liters = ppm

    I am no expert on this and you need answers from Vicki or Kaye but in my opinion your high iron is a big problem . Colbalt also being low your not absorbing the copper.
    Look at your water.
     

  3. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    Thanks Sondra...I should have known that. I know the water has iron in it, but not sure what to do about it. We put in a new well about 6 weeks ago and all the barn water supply is on the new water...but it still has iron in it. DH says it's not as hard as the old water but it's never been tested. How do you go about testing water and what can you do to fix it?
     
  4. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    This was pretty close to what our original tests showed in the 90's. This liver biopsy was before you bolused? How long had the goat lived on your farm, on consistant, non change of management? It's important you don't blame or give credit to this or that if you are one of those who buys and uses new things each time a product is mentioned on the internet.

    What mineral are you using? Is it red? I can not get my copper levels up in livers high enough with any iron being served up to the does, in red iron oxide in their mineral or molasses in their grain.

    I would bet if you could filter your does drinking water in the barn and get the red out of your mineral, bolus on a 6 month bases with exactly the dosages from saanendoah.com then liver biopsy your next shot you have, you would see a huge difference. I know that what I would see then is a lowering of the iron but an increase up into the 300's of copper and much higher all across the board. Some of the reason I think the mineral so popular in Oklahoma that is touted as having high levels of the 3 of your low minerals is directly related to too much iron and not enough copper in the diets of those goats. Supplementing higher MolyB and magnesium is not the answer if they are still not utilizing it because of high iron and low copper.

    For my herd, fixing my copper problems, and dealing with the iron, is why herd health is what it is, period. Worm burdens are negligible, reproductive problems, foot rot, mastitis, poor hair coat, just aren't having to deal with all this anymore. I am even going to play next year with bolusing my kids even younger than 12 weeks. To not have to worm or cocci the kids because of this improvement in immunity we are seeing is priceless. No oral meds after weaning from milk. Vicki
     
  5. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    I feed Right Now Onyx mineral, it is black and I've been using it for about six months. Before that I used the Purina mineral which is red. They don't seem to eat it nearly as well as they did the Purina.

    This doe had been in my herd since May, no major changes in management. I did switch to a different feeding program (new grain, addition of alf. pellets) about 5 months ago but as this was a dry yearling she got very little grain. I also started putting sodium bicarb out free choice. I don't try new things very often...I would say I am one of those who has to be hit over the head with something before I take notice. This liver biopsy was done about 1 month after copper bolusing.

    I know there is iron in the water because the automatic waterer has a red film in it. How would I filter this?

    I didn't know anything about copper until reading about it on this forum. I didn't know I had problems with copper deficiency until noticing several symptoms in my herd this fall. This has been a huge learning curve for me. I have read through all the Saanendoah info....I suppose I discounted it in a way because they are across the country from me. Obviously I've found out differently and the problem is worse than I thought. Thank you so much for the replies.
     
  6. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    With your copper that low and one month out from bolusing, I bet she spit it out when you weren't looking, no way in 3 or 4 weeks could it be this low.

    Just like you would for getting impurities out of your water at the sink in your house, set up the water to the barn the same way. Mine is at my well. I also replaced all galvanized pipe and don't use glavanized waterers because of it leaching zinc, which also binds copper. With just filtering iron from your water you can also just rinse out your fileters instead of replacing them so often. Husband just this last weekend replaced a waterline in the yard from copper to PVC, since the old barn is no longer there and the garden is. I didn't mind fighting the waterpressure in that small copper pipe for the barn with just filling of water barrells, but trying to water a garden with it, no way.

    You really haven't had the goats long enough to get a real reading of your management. What forms of copper are in your mineral, is iron listed? Have you called and asked if Iron is in the mineral? Vicki
     
  7. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Cargill Onyx Mineral
    Guaranteed Analysis

    Calcium -------- Min. 11.5 Max. 12.5
    Phosphorus ---- Min. 10.0
    Salt ----------- Min 11.5 Max 12.5
    Sodium -------- Min 4.8 Max 5.5
    Magnesium ---- Min. 3.0
    Potassium ----- Min. 2.0
    Copper -------- Min. 2,000 PPM
    Iodine --------- Min. 60 PPM
    Selenium ------ Min 30 PPM
    Zinc ---------- Min. 4,500 PPM
    Vitamin A ----- 111,000 IU/LB
    Vitamin D ----- 11,000 IU/LB
    Vitamin E ----- Min 110 IU/LB

    Ingredients:

    Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Salt, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Chloried, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Iron Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Ethylenodiamine Dihydriodide, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Amino Acid complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Cobalt Glucohaptonate, Processed Grain ByProducts, Molasses Products, Animal Fat, Vegetable Oil.

    Compared to Blue Bonnet Tech Master Complete (Which Vicki uses)

    Bluebonnet® 1552
    Tech-Master
    Complete Mineral
    Modern Mineral Supplement For Beef & Dairy Cattle, Horses & Goats
    -Guaranteed Analysis-

    Calcium________________Minimum 10.00%; Maximum__________________ 12.00%
    Phosphorus____________________Minimum_____________ _____________ 12.00%
    Salt___________________Minimum 10.00%; Maximum__________________ 12.00%
    Magnesium____________________Minimum______________ ____________ 2.35%
    Potassium_____________________Minimum_____________ _____________ 1.45%
    Copper________________________Minimum_____________ _____________ 2,000 ppm
    Selenium______________________Minimum_____________ _____________ 26.5 ppm
    Zinc__________________________Minimum_____________ _____________ 6,000 ppm
    Manganese____________________Minimum______________ ____________ 3,500 ppm
    Cobalt________________________Minimum_____________ _____________ 50 ppm
    Iodine_________________________Minimum____________ ______________ 100 ppm
    Vitamin A______________________Min. Per Lb.________________________ 200,000 I.U.
    Vitamin D3_____________________Min. Per Lb.________________________ 30,000 I.U.
    Vitamin E _____________________Min. Per Lb. _______________________ 300 I.U.


    -Ingredients-

    Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Dried Molasses, Yeast Culture, Dehydrated Kelp Meal, Potassium Amino Acid Complex, Potassium Chloride, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium
    Amino Acid Chelate, Magnesium Oxide, Magnesium Sulfate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Manganous Oxide, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Oxide, Cobalt Carbonate, Lecithin, Soybean Oil, Mineral
    Oil, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride,
    Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide.

    -Product Description-
    Bluebonnet® Tech-Master Complete Mineral is designed to provide calcium, phosphorus, vitamins and patented amino acid chelated trace minerals as well as micronutrients from seaweed meal (kelp) plus microbial digestive catalysts.

    -Feeding Directions-
    Cattle & Horses: Feed 4 ozs. of Tech-Master Complete Mineral per head daily. Do not feed any other source of salt when feeding 4 ozs. per head per day.

    Goats: Feed 1 oz. per head daily. DO NOT offer any other salt source.

    NOTE: Provide plenty of fresh, clean water at all times. Keep product fresh in cool, dry storage. DO NOT use any product that becomes old, molded or insect contaminated.

    DO NOT FEED TO SHEEP OR OTHER COPPER SENSITIVE ANIMALS.
    Bluebonnet® Feeds
    PO Box 2006 • Ardmore, OK 73402 • (580) 223-3010
    email: [email protected] www.bluebonnetfeeds.com
    NET WT. 50 LBS. (22.7 Kg.)
    __________________
     
  8. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    So your mineral is probably the best you can get in your area and I think Sara uses it also doesn't show that it has iron in it.
     
  9. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    Yes, I believe it is the best in this area. As far as her spitting out the bolus....I guess there is a slight chance but I was super careful with all of them...bolused and watched them swallow and kept an eye on them afterwards.

    As far as the filter....are you talking like the kind you hook on the faucet? Like the Brita water pitcher type thing?

    Some of the goats that have symptoms of copper deficiency have been in my herd for 2-4 years....the liver I sent in was from a newer goat.
     
  10. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    yeh on the filter you screw it into your line but might be good to put it at your pump like Vicki has hers. Am thinking abt getting one myself
     
  11. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    We have automatic waterers....I'll have to talk to dh about how that would work.
     
  12. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    We too have automatic waterers and also use a filter.

    Sara
     
  13. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    what is the brand Sara??
     
  14. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    Where do you attach it Sara? Where the hose attaches to the waterer?


    Also...where do you get these things? Hardware store I assume?
     
  15. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    Brand of filter? No idea... the cheap ones. :)

    The filter fits inside a blue housing. It is super easy to install and change filters when needed. Culligan maybe? I'll have to look.

    We have several Ritchie waterers. These are much different than the bowl waterers than many in the south use. The filter system is installed where the water line comes into the barn before it goes to any sinks, faucets, waterers, water heater, etc. You can purchase the filter and complete system at any hardware store.

    Sara
     
  16. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    yeh filters that was what I was wondering if they would be local Thanks
     
  17. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    Ours are Ritchie too. This doesn't sound too difficult...I will have to get one of them. I want to say TSC had a Culligan display up with filters like these...will have to take a second look.