Copper questions, and more questions about my sick kids....

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by MiddleRiver, Jul 25, 2008.

  1. MiddleRiver

    MiddleRiver New Member

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    Ok, so if you read my other post about my coughing kids ( the three i bought this year from two diff. farms ), and i had the vet out on Monday to check them.

    Anyways, it's just not sitting right with me still, they are coughing and it looks horrible, and something just isn't right. We were thinking lung worms - but my vet just wants me to try and "catch what they cough up if they do cough something up" and bring that in for testing for lung worms - sounds kinda funny for me, i would also want it tested for some bug or virus as well - if you can - but how the heck to i catch mucus ?

    He said we could do a "wash" but said it can be quite stressful on them, so try to just let them hack it up themselves - any suggestions ? Would it be at all possible to drum on their chests or something with a baggie for a catcher's mit ?

    Plus i did worm them with ivermectin 1% ( orally ) 2 weeks ago now - should i do a follow up worming, or would that have taken care of it if it were lung worms ? And it's funny that these are the only three with this issue - my other home raised goats don't have ANY signs and never had, and i would think they would have got them, as this has been going on for almost 2 months.

    The kids also had ok lungs according to the vet, and ok temps - two were 103.1-103.2, one was 102.2 when he was here. All three also have a tiny bit of green crusties on their noses too - i don't see runny noses at all, but i do see crusties.

    I really want these kids to thrive, so they have the best chances of breeding this fall, and i don't want perm. damage done to their health - and i'm getting worried. Vet said we could try Nuflor, but he would prefer to wait and test any mucus i get, and/or worm with Valbazon to try another wormer first - but the ivermectin is working for the other worms i have ( i fecal ). He didn't say if he knew a place to do the baerman test or not as he kinda blew it off - would it be a good enough chance of still being lung worms to call him up and persue the baerman test with him ? Or what else could this be - what would you do ? Would anything else be worth giving them ? vit. B or something ?

    Also, i brought up copper boulsing with him. I purchased a few calf ones from somebody, but would still need to downsize them - however, i want to make sure i need them first of course, as i'm nervous about it and don't really have a test goat to try on or us liver from. He keeps saying he can run a blood test for me - and when i said i hear they aren't reliable enough he said yes they are - he said it would be $35, so we could pick the goat that shows the most signs and just run the test on her - but i fear we would do this and it would give us an incorrect result of not being defficiant and a waste of money, and i'd still have all the problems i have which are - VERY poor rough, late shedding coats - my two adults still have about 20% of their winter coats. They look VERY sun bleached as well. Poor crumbly feet even though i keep up on trimming every time, and it's not wet nor dry here. My one Alpine doe ( which has the worst symptoms -Daisy ) also has a hard time keeping weight on when in milk - reguardless of the different diets we've tried, as well as other things. They are just scruffy looking too, and dry skin as well. Also, in April when Daisy kidded i ended up having to give her oxy to expell the placenta - which could have been from a non-normal kidding, but i'm not sure. And i should have looked at it better ( kicking myself now ), as i don't remember if it was thicker or not - i just checked to see if it was whole. I did give him a print out of the saanendoah website's info on copper he said he will read it, so maybe when i call him back he will have a different veiw on it.

    So should i run a blood test or not ??? I feed purina minerals, so i'm prett sure they are not getting all the copper they need - and the rest of my herd are all kids, so not showing signs yet other then my two adult does.

    I'm just confused, and want my herd looking better before breeding season, and my kids healthy. Thanks !
     
  2. Chaty

    Chaty New Member

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    I worm with Ivermec plus injectable and its helped mine considerably and I have also started using the purina Fescue as its got more copper ppm in it than the red bag of purina. I also bolused mine as had some kidding problems also and the colors in my does and bucks have changed so much the choc. does are chocolate again :crazy If you bolus them get a scale at WalMart to measure it and its basically 1 gram per 22lbs og goat. I got the Copasure from either Jeffers or ValleyVet and measures it out per goat. It sure has helped. Check you labels on the wormer and see if it says Lung worms... When I worm I do it and then 10 days later do it again and the 10 days later to break the worm cycle. Good luck I know this helped me ...others will know more.
    Kathy
     

  3. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Of course the problem children will be purchased goats and not homegrown ones. Goat you raise yourself become used to the management, it takes a good year for purchased stock to pull it all together if there is much change in management.

    What is the fecal showing on your kids? I would also stop the conversating with the vet, his info is typical, what you want to do is steer the vet to better info by simply just stating....I want this liver sent to, such and such for a test...I can tell you from personal experience and you can read it on saanendoah.com that blood testing is a waste of time it tells you nothing but what the goat ate yesterday that was high in copper, not what it is storing. The difference is it can only store what is there after all the defficiency on your place as robbed the bodies ability to store the copper.

    Blood testing for disease, for selenium, for calcium is a valuable tool.

    I would simply call around or google Wisconsin labs who run Bareman and for heavens sake look up the spelling..perhaps he doesn't even know what it is. It is a fecal test that is spun, it is not a test on the spittle. the idea that you can collect mucous from coughing...brother!

    Cocci and worm can also bring on all the things you are describing even the cough because of the anemia.

    I wouldn't use Ivermectin plus on kids unless I knew I had liver flukes. Have you seen the pointy mouthed eggs on fecal? If you have why not just do as Kaye has mentioned, 1cc per 30 pounds orally, make sure you know those kids weights, repeat every 10 days for 3 times, this breaks adult lifecycles.

    Why not just shave everyone down so you aren't looking at winter hair, and stressed from the move hair on these kids, and see on your management if it is as bad as you think.

    Thinness in milkers is no big deal. A good milker can't be fat unless she has had extended dry period in which she has been allowed to really pork out, all are not good things in goats. Now if you are talking small and narrow, than you will never get wieght on them so they look like our big girls because they are confomationally narrow.

    What is the protein of you daily feeding program. Feet and horns are all about protein. Too much and you are trimming feet way to often, to little and you have poor quality to the hooves and flaky horns. But feet are also about copper and calcium also.

    Good luck with all this I know it is discouraging. But nothing you are complaining about is life threatening.

    Sorry but I don't remember what you feed... Vicki
     
  4. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    [email protected] New Member

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    This is just an interesting article I had saved: http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/thingoat.html

    Chronic Pulmonary Disease - Lungers

    Chronic pulmonary or lung disease can be caused by a variety of infectious agents.
    Depending on the agent, clinical signs may vary.

    Clinical signs:

    1. may or may not have a temperature, may go and come
    2. persistent cough
    3. noticeable movement of the chest with effort to expel breath, little grunt
    4. slightly depressed and poor appetite or intermittent anorexia
    5. exercise brings on clinical signs


    Causes:
    * Lung worms
    1. Diagnose by fecal exam
    2. treatment of animals with severe signs is unrewarding
    * Mycoplasma mycoides
    Treatment
    1. Long acting tetracycline Extralabel usage
    -- these infections can be very difficult to treat
    * Pastuerella hemolytica or Mannheimia hemolytica
    Treatment
    1. Naxcel®
    2. Nuflor® Extralabel usage
    3. adjunct treatment
    4. Vit C/100 lbs Extralabel usage
    5. BoSe/100 lbs, may not want to use in pregnant goats as may produce an allergic type reaction. Extralabel usage
    * Caprine Arthritis and Encephalitis Virus

    When we first bought our present goats 4 years ago we we had both lung worms and shipping fever. We used ivermectin 1 % injectable orally to treat it. This wormer still works for us here. You will have to do a repeat worming in 3 weeks. From then on, the ivermectin will need to be part of your herd care. Lung worms can set you up for pneumonia. They can also have really nasty infections in their sinus cavities. It may be a good idea to treat the infections as well as give the wormer.

    We kept them on Vit c and vit b complex for many weeks. We also gave vit e orally to help the lung tissue to heal. At that time I was anit-medication so we only used herbal products to fight infection. We also made sure fresh garlic was given to them. If I had to fight this over again we would use antibiotics, I would drop a couple of the herbal products and switch to something else which we think is more effective.
    The pasturella vaccine is also something you might consider using. Please consider getting a different mineral. Purina stinks; I don't like them. Try to get something without iron oxide, high levels of salt or mollasses. Try to get chelated minerals if you can. This will help them absorb more copper.
     
  5. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    That is a good call Jo, you could use a blood test for mycoplasma...it really should be one of those disease on contract...CAE, CL, Mycoplasma that you want the kids to go back to the breeder :) With a blood test it would also rule it out.

    Another thought is 5 days of tetracycline at the high end dose and put them on a feed through until next spring? Vicki
     
  6. MiddleRiver

    MiddleRiver New Member

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    Wow ! Thanks ladies for all the info. I really do want to keep talking with my vet about this though, as really he is a good guy, and really tries to learn about things he doesn't yet know, and if this could be one of those times, and could help me or others in the future that would be wonderful. He is the only vet around i trust with my critters, however is fairly new ( but usually very willing to learn and talk with other vets and research ) to goats, and he is young - like just 5-6 yrs out of school, so of course still has some learning to do - he is also a large and small animal vet ( he is my vet for all my critters ) so i'm sure has a lot on his plate, but really loves the animals, is good with them and very smart and easy for me to deal with as well.

    Jo - thanks for all that info, i will read that to my vet when i talk with him again. Though i'm not sure i have all the signs of that, i surely have most. They cough, and it seems to be when they are excited ( like when they see me, and when they are jumping all over eachother, or when they run ), their lungs sound good - but their noses don't - like i can hear crackling and heavy breathing from their noses when i am at their level - plus they have the green crusties. They have never had a fever, but have had higher temps. They have NEVER been off their feed though and play/act normal.

    Vicki - fecals - i've never seen those eggs, but am new to fecals as well - about 10 under my belt only - i will do more this weekend, and i'm also going to send some berries up to my vet as well ( which i've done before after just starting to make sure i wasn't missing anything ).

    I had the same thought " how the heck am i gonna catch mucus " ! And what you say about it being the new kids makes good sense, too bad it's making my DH sour about me spending so much money on the three, as he sees it as super pricey kids i bought that are ill - and it bums me out as well.

    My skinny girl Dasiy, you are most likely right, she is a narrow doe in general, and a heavy milker, very fine boned as well. But i'm attached to her so can't just cull her yet anyways, however due to her awful weight loss this year, as soon as i weaned her twins i dried her up - i mean she wasn't just a good milker thin, she was so thin i didn't want anybody to see her and i couldn't sleep about it and was worried for her - now dry she is putting the weight back on and i'm still trying to figure out what to do with her. Last year she got thin too ( she had a single doeling and was aFF - i let her raise her kid and i milked once a day ) so thats when i started consulting with my vet and asking online questions and trying different things. I dried her up, and got her in to great shape by fall, and bred her. She looked great ! She still looked good when she kidded, but after about 2 days in milk started loosing fast again. So now i'm trying to get her back in shape to hopefully breed her again this year if i can - but in the back of my mind i'm wondering if i should just give her a year off ??? When not in milk she does get pretty big though and i'm worried about her getting over conditioned - but worried about her health if i breed her this year too. My other milker ( and milkers i had before i sold them ) look great ( other then the copper type issues ) and milks very well.

    I'm feeding the dry doe good grass mix hay and alfalfa pellets right now ( and of course minerals and water). She was tried on my milker ration that i started this year when she was milking - which is AP, BOSS,mostly oats, barley and then a little bit of a custom grain mix that i got from somebody that everybody gets ( cows and the horses for a treat ) which is about 20% protein. I am more then open to other feeding ideas so please share if you have a suggestion.

    Also last year when my sr. buck was having issues my vet tested his blood for all sorts of things - i have the print out somewhere but can't find it so am going to ask my vet for another copy if he has one - if he does, would you mind taking a look at those levels and telling me what you think ? Maybe it could be a clue to something, or maybe something wasn't right but my vet thought it was because of what "school" taught him :+)

    I will ask for a test for mycoplasma - but i'm wondering if you know of a lab where i can send my own sample as i do for CAE and CL - as i'm pretty sure i could get it quicker and save some money - should i have everybody tested for it ? My kids are only 3-4 months old - will it show up on them at this young of an age if they have it ?

    Thank you all so very much ! - this really helps to feel like i haven't just hit a dead end and nothing i can do or investiagate more. It is VERY frustrating feeling like that when i know something just isn't right with my babies.
     
  7. MiddleRiver

    MiddleRiver New Member

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    Oh, i did a google search for labs that run the Bareman ( is that how it is spelled ? ) and couldn't find one - do any of you know of some ?

    As for changing minerals - purina is the only goat one my feed store carries, i'm open to better ones though of course - any suggestions for one i can find here ?
     
  8. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    get a good dairy cattle mineral and forget abt "goat" mineral
     
  9. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    baermann test
     
  10. MiddleRiver

    MiddleRiver New Member

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    Thanks Sondra ! i'm sure they have a dairy cow mineral, or at least a beef cow one - can i just tell them i want a dairy cow mineral, or do i need to check the tag for anything ? Just want to make sure it would be safe for them and better then what i have now :+)
     
  11. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    I just would try to get something without alot of molasses and what has a high % of copper and selenium. even a good horse mineral will work. just read the lable
     
  12. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    Please add Banamine or generic to this treatment to prevent scarring in the lungs. It's a very important additive to take the inflammation and swelling of the brochial tubes down during treatment.
    Kaye