Copper question...

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by trnubian, Sep 25, 2008.

  1. trnubian

    trnubian New Member

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    Ok what would the correct copper ppm's be for a good mineral. (I live ins a high iron area.)
    Trying to find a good mineral so I don't have to bolus my goats...
     
  2. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    I have probably the best mineral and I still bolus I use Blue Bonnet Tech Master Complete the list of ingrediets on it is in 101 I can't remember right off hand and my eyes are hurting so am not going to go look it up
     

  3. trnubian

    trnubian New Member

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    So if i do have to bolus (which I probably should) do I order the 20 or the 10? Couldn't I just use the 10 (it's for calves) or do i still need to split it? I have a total of 2 goats right now so ordering a big tub of the things seems absolutely rediculous.. but I don't know what else to do?
     
  4. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    Most importantly, if you are considering copper bolusing your goats... I certainly hope you are doing liver biopsies to know they are copper deficient.

    Sara
     
  5. trnubian

    trnubian New Member

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    I have not done liver biopsies on my goats. I really DON'T want to bolus if I don't have to. The highest copper I can find in my area is the magnum milk from sweetlix 1750 ppm. The reason I feel that my doe is copper deficiant is that her normally black dorsal stripe has turned a whitish color, her thighs are starting to whiten out, and her hair is slightly course. She has also had problams with milk fever no matter how much calcium she was offered via alfalfa. I have previously had a doe who was all black. She turned a reddish color, lost hair around her eyes leaving big white rings. So I feel fairly strongly (though I very well could be wrong) that I am dealing with a classic copper deficancy problem. I have no way to do a live biopsy as I have only 2 goats at the present. What should I do? :help
     
  6. Anita Martin

    Anita Martin Senior Member

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    I had my vet draw a blood sample and check for blood levels of copper in one of my young does. It came back fine. I'm sure it wasn't as accurate as a liver biopsy, and she said she could biopsy a live animal, but I chose the blood draw first. We didn't have any symptoms, except this goat has been about 10 pounds or so lighter than her sister, and her black hair had somewhat of an orangish cast too it, which the vet thought was probably from sun-bleaching. She did have higher cocci numbers though. It sounds like you might truely be having a copper issue.
    Anita
     
  7. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    If you read saanendoah.com you will find that blood tests tell you nothing, they are not just a little bit inaccurate they tell you no more than she has copper sulfate in her diet yesterday. Vicki
     
  8. Rose

    Rose New Member

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    OK, as a newbie, I have a question. If you only have a few milk goats, so you don't want to butcher one for the liver biopsy, what do you do?
     
  9. BlissBerry

    BlissBerry Guest

    Have my vet perform a live liver biopsy. :)

    Sara
     
  10. Rose

    Rose New Member

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    Oh, dear. My insides absolutely shrivel up at the thought. :help

    Thanks for the answer, but I don't know if I can do that. Let me ponder this. :down
     
  11. LMonty

    LMonty New Member

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    the other thing you can do is copper supplement and watch for changes :)

    Seriously though, from a scientific standpoint, Sara is right, you should check first. As Vicki has pointed out before, it should be an adult animal who has been in your management in the same area and with the same feed and conditions for a prolonged period of time to be really accurate.

    So you can either risk a live biopsy, or do one when you have a death from some other reason, or butcher; or sacrifice an animal to check. If you didnt have any of the symptoms of copper deficiency at all, it would be MUCH better to do those things first. Because then you'd be at higher risk of inducing copper toxicity if your levels were normal to begin with. Some people might forego the testing if they see the obvious signs of copper deficiency, which sounds like its getting more progressive from your description above. AFAIK, theres nothing else that can cause the symtoms you describe. Anyone know what else it might be?

    Ask your vet if its reasonable to trial it. You might want to print of the Saanendoah pages and bring to him/her to review and see what they think. I hate making decsions when I have situations like this, when things arent clear cut. So I tend to try to rank my options by their relative risk. A liver biopsy isnt risk free, and neither is supplementing if you dont know baseline status. Doing nothing in the face of significant symptoms isnt risk free either! In the situation you describe, when you consider the risk of all the options plus the expenses involved-which includes potential loss of the animal(s), loss of progeny, production, increased illness, cost of biopsy, cost of replacement animals, intrinsic and financial value of the particular animals you have- my own personal risk tolerance would lead me to treat for copper deficiency and watch the result. Or at least treat the one with the worst symptoms. I'd take that gamble.

    YMMV, and understandably so. Depends on your situation. Especially if you have a vet who is comfortable and experienced with doing a liver biopsy and the cost is lower than the replacement value of the animal. If I had a goat I wasnt really attached to and that I could replace affordably, and the biospy cost a couple of hundred bucks- I'd just treat and see what happens. If I had $1000 animals I'd spring for the biopsy even if it cost a lot more, because it was worth it to me to get that info and have it for herd helth purposes.

    I switched to MultiMin for my copper because I absolutely HATE bolusing, andI'm pretty comfortable with its effectiveness. I have a capsule or two of copper oxide needles left over from the jar Ashley split with me this spring if you want to trial it. If youre interested PM me and I can drop it in the mail to you next week.