Coccidia help

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by stoneyheightsfarm, Oct 21, 2008.

  1. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

    1,778
    0
    0
    Hi All,

    I was wondering if y'all could help me understand/figure out something...

    I just got back from the vet with fecals done on all my goats. As usual, my girls have next to no coccidia--all of them, even the late June doeling. And as usual, my boys have high levels. I get them down with treatment, and then they explode later, whether we use a sulfa or corid, or both in conjunction.

    I would just take it at face value that once every 3 to 4 weeks you have to do cocci treatment until adulthood, if it weren't for my girls NEVER needing treatment. The vet is stumped. She said that if she hadn't been to my farm, from the fecals, she'd just think that my boys were in an overcrowded and dirty condition, but having been to my farm and being thoroughly amazed by how clean I keep everything and how much space my bucks have, she can't figure it out.

    Now all my girls come from the same line and I'm wondering if perhaps this line is just more resistant?? If I didn't have the June doeling with super low cocci levels, I'd blame it on the fact that my other 2 does were Feb babies and my bucks are May babies. But that June doeling throws that theory out the window.

    So, for now she said we'll just do a treatment once every 4 weeks unless we see cause for concern (sick symptoms) before then, and try switching to a rumensin feed, since that's one drug we have yet to try. I know there's a co-op in TN that sells one, but ours doesn't, so I need to pull up that item number & label and see if they can get it in... and perhaps try calling some of the other local feed mills... (the one I use won't touch the stuff)...

    Anyhow, can anyone explain why I'm seeing what I'm seeing here? Why do my girls have such low levels and never need treatment, and my boys need regular treatment?
     
  2. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    Something is different. Are the feeders different, can the boys get their feet in the feeders, in the hay, have more grass? Do the hens have access to the doe pen and not the buck? Is the buck pen wetter than the girls? Is the buck pen shadier than the girls? Does the buck pen have standing water? And what numbers of coccidia are you seeing? Boys in rut are alot more stressed than girls, all the fighting, not eating, pacing the fence, lowers their immunity. Have you seen anything that tells you have cocci other than fecals? It would have to be in the high hundreds in the low thousands to treat something over 8 months old for cocci. Least wise here. Like I have said before it isn't enough to know if yes or no you have something if the test also can't tell you how many eggs per gram.

    It won't hurt to keep them on corid or a sulfa until winter is over, it's just not really helping. Now if you use your sulfa and go back into the vet in 10 days for another fecal and your number hasn't dropped than yes you have a resistant cocci that sulfa doesn't work on. But not work with corid? Using the correct dose it can't not work, because it takes away the cocci's ability to utilize B1 to move to a harmful lifecycle, they can't become resistant because it's not a drug in the sense that it kills all cocci. Vicki
     

  3. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

    1,837
    0
    0
    Coccidia treatments are suppose to be done every 21 days...not every 30.
    Using the right doses and at the right time should keep your coccidia #'s in check.
    Kaye
     
  4. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

    1,778
    0
    0
    Yes, something is different, and you touched on a few I hadn't put too much thought into before. The buck pen is on lower ground than the doe pen, with part of the doe pen uphill from it. They have no trees, only grass in their pen, whereas the doe pen has more trees and rock and very little grass--more tall weeds. The buck pen is shadier than the girls, and the drainage is slower (girls are on a hill, boys on flatter ground). Both pens have chickens... The doe pen has about 7 roosters that roam in from time to time and over our property taking care of ticks (and making a mess out of our mulch!) The buck pen has 11 pullets in it full time (thanks to those GPs and that owl they got last night, or there'd be more!).

    I asked the vet about the buck pen having more grass and she said that if we were looking at worms, she would say it's the grass, but w/coccidia, she doesn't think that's it. But if I remember Karin Christianson's animations correctly, the grass could make a difference, right?

    Next year, the bucks should be in a different barn with a different pen that is primarily trees and rocks, just like the girls is now... The current buck pen will be just for chickens then.

    Our vet doesn't do an epg count, just that 1 to 4 scale based on scanning the slide and guestimating. The boys are back up to a 4. They were a 5 when I got them, got down to a 1 with treatment, back up to a 3 after 4 weeks, back to a 1 with treatment, back up to a 4 now... I should have had fecals in last week, but with this morning sickness and our vet's schedule, I couldn't get in to see the one I want (who gives me the 50% discount on fecals) until today. So treatment is bringing the numbers down, it's just that they go right back up again in 21 days or so with the boys, but never an issue with the girls.

    I asked her if I should treat every 3 weeks based on the duration of the coccidian life cycle. She said that since the only symptom I'm seeing right now besides the fecals is sticky poop, then every 4 weeks should be fine. Would y'all go with the 3 weeks instead, though? On rainy days, the poop is stickier (clumpy) than normal.

    I'm encouraged that she said that this is something they will grow out of in time--they're only 5 months old now. They are most definitely in rut so the stress factor makes sense, too.

    What are y'all's thoughts on switching to a rumensin feed as opposed to decoquinate? What other changes can I make to make this situation better?
     
  5. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    Not sure what that fecal egg count is costing you but why not send it in to the state lab that does an EPG. Tell you what though if you took a fecal sample in on any goat on my property last month my vet would have said cocci. I think your 4 may be a normal level. Have you had her do a healthy adult doe before? Vicki
     
  6. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    Billie....I have to ask....are these bucklings worm levels higher too ?

    I have often noticed that under normal conditions (no sick goats) that my cocci levels will sometimes rise and fall in conjunction with worm levels.....or visa-versa. I can only assume that the stress of having a problem with one, can give the other room to grow. So, I've noticed in the past that cocci was harder to keep in check if the goat was a little bit wormy too.

    Hopefuly, your boys will be old enough in a few more weeks that they will become more naturaly resistant to cocci.

    WHIM
     
  7. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

    1,778
    0
    0
    Vicki,

    Our state lab does not do an epg count. I've had them do fecals before and you get basically, "It looked like a lot more than it should." Or, "They looked okay to me." They don't charge for fecals, but I get a better idea w/the vet, and she lets me look at the slides, too. I wonder if I bought her some McMaster slides as a Christmas present, if she'd do an epg count? ;) I'd just do it myself, but I don't do as good a job as my vet at running the fecal. :)

    I don't have any adult does; my oldest does are those February doelings--does that count? She has done them, and said they had next to none.


    Whim,

    We're not seeing any worms. That's a blessing, but it does confuse things!

    The feed they're currently on has decoquinate in it. They're getting the 2 pounds per day required for their 60ish pound bodyweight. But with all the necessary treatment, it seems this feed isn't helping them too terribly much. This is frustrating.
     
  8. paulaswrld

    paulaswrld New Member

    629
    0
    0
    Billie, We have several vets in the area that will do a count. It may be worth getting it done and getting a count.

    Paula
     
  9. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

    1,778
    0
    0
    Who in our area does an epg count? Do you know fees?
     
  10. paulaswrld

    paulaswrld New Member

    629
    0
    0
    Kord (State Lab) will also do counts, you just have to request it. 615-837-5125 and it is free. Enoch Vet on Hartsville Pike will also do it, she is pricey....I think it runs $18.00.

    Paula
     
  11. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

    1,778
    0
    0
    Okay, well, I just started the round of Corid, so if I can find a local vet that will do an epg count, then next time I do a fecal, I'll take samples to both and compare...

    When I look at the slides, I literally see maybe 2 or 3 oocysts on the entire slide for my girls. The boys' would be like counting the stars in the sky on a super clear night...

    Another thought on this that makes me think that genetics could have something to do with it... All my girls have this big milk goiter but my boys don't. Since this is a sign of a healthy immune system, that might have something to do with their cocci resistance? Whaddayathink?
     
  12. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

    1,778
    0
    0
    Huh. When I asked one of the vets at Kord if they'd do an epg for me, she said that they don't do that. Did you talk to Dr. Fisher or someone else?

    Enoch. Okay. Thanks! $18 is worth it to do a comparison and see what exactly I'm dealing with. (and not have to drive to N'ville mid week!)
     
  13. paulaswrld

    paulaswrld New Member

    629
    0
    0
    At Kord, talk to Joyce, Alice or Judy. Alice is a tech that actually does the work...she is great!

    Paula
     
  14. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

    1,778
    0
    0
    Okay, thanks!

    So... any further thoughts, though, on why my boys have so much more than the girls, even if it's within an acceptable range? So far, we have rut, but maybe or maybe not the grass, and maybe or maybe not the strength of the immune system...?
     
  15. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

    1,837
    0
    0
    LOL...I don't know where you heard that...but's it's entirely false! It just means you gave the girls more milk and/or they sucked harder. It's got nothing to do with the immune system.
    Kaye
     
  16. paulaswrld

    paulaswrld New Member

    629
    0
    0
    I have no answers on this one. I can tell you that the littermate siblings are having no problems with cocci. I wish the answer was as easy as one line being more prone to cocci than the other...I just don't see that here. I agree that I have hardier lines....and your girls are from what I call my easy keepers but so is one of your boys (Jarlath).

    I would do as Vicki suggested on this...get a count and see if you really do have an issue. Especially since there are no sick symptoms.

    Paula
     
  17. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

    1,778
    0
    0
    I fully intend to get a count. I don't want to compare apples to oranges by getting one after starting treatment and comparing it to before treatment, since last time I started treatment w/Corid, I saw results pretty quickly, so the next time I fecal, I will compare apples to apples. Thinking that I should definitely do this in 3 weeks, but maybe also in 5 days after completion of treatment....?

    Whether I have a real problem or not (boys numbers still low enough) I know what I see on the slide and they still have far more than the girls and I'm still trying to figure out why so I can make improvements to my management. For instance, if it is the grass, would I be better off spraying vinegar or something and killing the grass? (It's getting close to picked clean by the pullets now.) If it's the chickens, then I should move them. What impact will the shade have? Drainage? If where the boys' levels are is not a real problem, that's great, but there's clearly room for improvement, and being the perfectionist that I am, I want to make those improvements. I'd rather have nice dry berries than sticky ones. :)
     
  18. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

    16,497
    4
    0
    Billie, immunity does come into play with goats. Alot of times you can directly link sicker goats with young moms, their colostrum simply doesn't contain enough of anything to inocculate kids. So a kid with less immunity would have more stress so things like worms and cocci would be more of a problem.

    Milk goiter is alike kaye has said, see in kids who are fed alot of milk...I think it is also a place that simply stores more fat also.

    Boys have alot more to do younger than does do, and take more of everything to grow out well.

    How did you find out about the levels of feed to feed to keep the drug level....level? Most mills use old sheep information. Kaye has warned us before about the too low of levels of deccox etc...in feeds for goatlings, why I free choice it. Vicki
     
  19. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    9,442
    1
    0
    you do not want to wait for sick symptoms because with cocci you may never see any symptoms at all but you have a ruined goat.