CAE Dialogue

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by, Apr 6, 2008.

  1. New Member

    Forwarded this from Nubian Talk. I thought this was a really good exchaged, I was going to post somthing because the gals original post was soo full of inaccuracies, but Karin did a much better job. It's always soo shocking to me when older breeders believe hype like this, but then post it to forums read by new folks to perpetuate this.


    Posted by: "Karin Christensen" [email protected] goatacres
    Sat Apr 5, 2008 9:45 am (PDT)

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Meredith Fewins" <[email protected]>
    > What I was told is that CAE has NO SYMPTOMS. It is
    > a retro virus (supposedly) and as such has no symptoms
    > of its own. The symptoms one sees associated with
    > CAE are actually the symptoms of mycoplasma. Oh, yes,
    > the original Elisha test was developed to detect
    > mycoplasma, not CAE.

    I'm not sure where this information comes from but it is greatly incorrect.
    The CAE virus itself does not cause symptoms, true. It's the body's
    overreactive immune response to the presence of the virus that causes the
    symptoms. This is generally true for all viruses. They do not produce
    toxins but do destroy cells when they emerge from them which in some cases
    causes severe symptoms. Herpes virus is one example. When you get sick
    from the flu virus it is because the body mounts such a strong immune
    response. Fever, inflamation, formation of mucus, etc. are all immune
    responses to the presence of viruses. It is the body's way of destroying

    Bacteria on the other hand usually produce some sort of toxin which causes
    the disease.

    The ELISA test (which was developed originally to look for the sheep
    retrovirus, not mycoplasma) looks for antibodies that the body formed in
    response to the presence of certain proteins that exist on the surface of
    the virus.

    Mycoplasma species are bacteria that are very small compared to other types
    of bacteria and do not have cell walls. Mycoplasma species cause disease in
    much the same way as viruses. They do not produce toxins like other
    bacteria, it's the immune response to mycoplasma which causes the symptoms.
    They do not have the same surface glycoproteins that retroviruses have so
    you could not detect them on an ELISA test for the CAE virus. The science
    behind identifying these different glycoproteins is very advanced and can be
    trusted to be correct.

    > I was also told that none, I
    > repeat NONE, of the current tests we have can detect
    > the difference between CAE and mycoplasma. They are
    > cross reactive. Hence, if you have a goat who has
    > had mycoplasma, which is highly treatable with today's
    > antibiotics, they will test positive for CAE.

    This is simply not the case. The genetic code of two species of mycoplasma
    has been completely sequenced. The PCR test can easily distinguish between
    the genome of this bacteria and a retrovirus. And the ELISA can distinguish
    between different antibodies to the surface proteins (or antigens).

    In addition, mycoplasma infections are very difficult to treat with
    antibiotics. If a goat has mycoplasma it has symptoms, often severe
    symptoms including mastitis, pneumonia and arthritis. If all these goats
    you say have mycoplasma rather than CAE then all would be very sick goats.

    > Ever wonder why we don't see as many goats with CAE
    > symptoms? Well duh!!! We have antibiotics which will
    > cure mycoplasma, hence no symptoms.
    > I was also told that 90% of ALL goats will test
    > positive for CAE (this includes those herds who are
    > supposedly CAE negative folks). Of this number, 90%
    > will never have any signs or symptoms, never be sick,
    > and live long and productive lives (yes, 12-15 years
    > or more).

    Again, this is not true. It does not even make sense. How can 90% of goats
    that test positive also test negative? True most goats that are positive
    will not develop symptoms if they are not subjected to stress. If one of
    those goats go through the stress of something as simple as moving to a new
    home, the body will mount a response to the virus. Anytime you have an
    infection where white cells are called into action this seems to cause the
    viruses to come out of hiding. This can cause an immune reaction by the
    body and the symptoms begin.

    We do not see the symptoms so much these days because there are not as many
    goats with CAEv as there used to be due to the effective testing and
    prevention methods.

    > Face it, if what these experts told me is true, and
    > I've no reason to think otherwise, we will never get
    > rid of CAE because we are not dealing with CAE.

    The tests they use are very accurate. The only possibility is that they may
    detect another retrovirus that does not cause any known disease in the goat.
    I don't know who these experts are but it is obvious that they are not
    experts in the field of retrovirology.

    > Enough said. I'm off my soap box. And yes, I do
    > raise
    > my kids CAE prevention but I don't test!

    This is exactly how I ended up with my first goat which had CAE. The
    breeder practiced CAE prevention but did not test. Later I found that most
    of the goats she sold in the few years she bred goats were positive.

    If you are not going to test, dam raise. At least then only kids from
    positive dams have the chance of acquiring the virus instead of all of the
    kids that drink the pooled milk. I do not believe that the virus can always
    be destroyed by heat treating colostrum. And it is colostrum that is the
    major source of viral infection.

    It is also possible that the more natural dam feeding and milk taken
    straight from the dam may have components that may prevent infection by the
    virus. Natural intestinal bacteria like lactobacillus have been shown to
    destroy the HIV retrovirus because they like to eat the special sugars that
    coat the virus. Some studies done in Africa have shown that babies that
    nursed on their positive mothers milk were less likely to get the virus than
    babies fed artificial milk products.

    While it wasn't the end of the world to begin with a positive doe (and I
    still own one of her dam raised does who at the age of 11 is still negative)
    I would much rather prefer to not have it in my herd if given a choice. Now
    that I know more about it I can be more careful in the rare event that I
    bring a new goat into the herd, but as a novice it wasn't pleasant learning
    this lesson the hard way -- but it wasn't the worst thing to have happen

    Karin Christensen
    The Biology of the Goat

  2. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    Wonderful job done by Karin

  3. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

    Great read.

  4. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    """""" Face it, if what these experts told me is true, """.....

    Well, I always have to ask the question when I hear "facts" being put out by experts.......where was this research done ? and what were the experts credentials that performed this research ? and then, where can I find any of this "research" info.?
    If it starts out sounding like Doc Bubba, over in the back 40, under a shade tree........well, then there's your sign.

    Karin did make this statement in her reply, that I've really not heard before.............

    """"If you are not going to test, dam raise. At least then only kids from
    positive dams have the chance of acquiring the virus instead of all of the
    kids that drink the pooled milk. I do not believe that the virus can always
    be destroyed by heat treating colostrum. And it is colostrum that is the
    major source of viral infection.

    It is also possible that the more natural dam feeding and milk taken
    straight from the dam may have components that may prevent infection by the
    virus. Natural intestinal bacteria like lactobacillus have been shown to
    destroy the HIV retrovirus because they like to eat the special sugars that
    coat the virus. Some studies done in Africa have shown that babies that
    nursed on their positive mothers milk were less likely to get the virus than
    babies fed artificial milk products. K """""""""""

    ..........I would like to hear some more thoughts on this statement also........Whim
  5. kidsngarden

    kidsngarden New Member

    In my novice opinion, the only way to combat this truly is to test and cull postive goats. I don't mean cull as in sell, I mean cull as in KILL. After reading up I, like the poster above, am not thoroughly convinced that pasturizing CAE positive milk is always effective, but I don't really know.

    Our first milker was bought naively at an auction from a fairly reputable breeder who was aware she was CAE positive. When we went to get her from the barn the worker told us, "This is a really great goat, the only reason susan is selling her is because she is CAE positive. But that's ok because you can still breed her, just pasturize her milk and ....." We totally had no clue about CAE until we came home with this goat and read up on it. On the bill of sale it said, "this is her first freshening, if you want to breed her please contact the seller" That was her way of being "nice" and letting us know AFTER we bought her!

    She was a decent goat, with ok production. Not a good mother (we did breed her and dam raised her doe who went to the freezer). She had no symptoms. My neighbor wanted her and said he'd promise never to breed her. I wouldn't do it. There's so much misinformation. He could buy her and then read some sort of garbage about CAE and decide I didn't know what I was talking about and breed her, dam raise the kids and sell them at the sale barn so the cycle would begin again.

    So out behind the garden she went with the meat kids on butcher day. She was too old in our oprinion to eat so she was cremated. I confess I was a little teary about it. But I don't think it's right to sell or even give away a goat I knew was positive. At that point I had been advised to just start my herd over with from a good herd, which I am doing this month. My current does will be tested again, if any are positive they will have the same fate as our first. Only one has been tested by us, she was negative. The other two were "raised on prevention" buy a reputable breeder, but not yet tested, so this will be interesting. If My doe who tested neg last year test pos for some reason I think I will retest to be sure. The other ones probably not.

    So now I'm doing what you all have told me here...No more auction goats, buying from a VERY reputable breeder, testing every year, and bottle feeding unless I am sure they are headed to MY freezer.
  6. New Member

    Whim, if you aren't going to test (not you just You as in those who don't test) than dam raising is the smartest way to go about it. We know that errors are made in heat treating and pasteurising in herds, mostly because it isn't done by one adult person. So if you let kids nurse, only the doe and her kids would be positive, much eaiser to cull.

    You read all the time those who pastuerise milk, yet feed raw colostrum....or who heat treat colostrum then pool milk. In reality had I not pooled milk and fed all my kids that colostrum and milk I would not have had a 90% rate of infection the first times I tested. Dam raised kids are protected from getting CAE only in that they don't then get CAE from another doe who is infected. I also thing CAE dams give immunity to kids via colostrum, so their kids, although CAE positive, do not become clinical. It's the kids who have no immunity who then are infected with the milk that become clinical.

    We talked about this in club quite a bit back in the early 90's, why we were not feeding colostrum from our positive does who were not having clinical signs, yet were 8 and 9 years reality turning your herd positive from immunity, not positive from the disease. Like my husband who is positive on a TB test, he does not have TB he has immunity to it. But lik the TB test or the CAE test, it can not distingish between disease and immunity. So like those who vaccinate for CL and turn their whole herd positive on blood, in the dairy goat industry that practice, or the CAE idea, would put you out of business. Vicki
  7. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    Thanks Vicki....the way you said this, is also my way of understanding the CAE process too.

    It was really this last statement .......... "Some studies done in Africa have shown that babies that
    nursed on their positive mothers milk were less likely to get the virus than
    babies fed artificial milk products. K """""""""""

    .......that was kinda throwing me a bit. It suggest that immune systems in those goats were not only able to suppress the symptoms, but kill or avoid the actual virus itself. I would be interested in looking at this research, and would be most curious to see how much time had been allowed in the testing process as the goats aged.

    Thanks for the talk, Whim
  8. Ashley

    Ashley Active Member

    Me too, I was hoping for a little more discussion on it. Why are animals that are getting artificial milk products getting cae mroe than those nursing their positive mothers? Is it because the animals getting artificial milk products are getting raw colostrum first, and then the milk replacer? Thus getting exposed to CAE without the benefit of the dam's milk and the probiotics it contains?

    This is really interesting, because Juliet De Baraicli Levi (I can't spell her name) says it is a "man mad disease" caused by unnatural rearing, which would include not allowing babies to nurse their dams, giving replacer so there is more milk to sell.

    BTW, she says herbs for CAE are mainly garlic (whole, and she promotes using both clove and leaf), rue, wormwood or southernwood, sage, rosemary and cloves. Of course, the amounts she recommends for herbs is a lot. For example, the garlic dose for a goat sized animal is several bulbs (that's whole roots, not just cloves) plus a handful of garlic greens. It does make me very curious, I wish someone would try it.

    IF you had a CAE positive animal, and you were able to cure it, killing all the virus from it's system, would it's antibodies drop over time, so that the animal could test negative again and cure could be proven?
  9. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    Ashley......IMO, I think that the titer would show for CAE from now on, even if the goat never shown a symptom........but I'll let somebody with the actual research in hand to clarify that statement.

    I really don't doubt that the Africa research has some bit of merit to it. Natural immune systems usually win the wars in the end most times, as is proved by us still being here after several thousand years of being bombarded by everything but the kitchen sink. ......but most of the time, this war that goes on can take many years, and many generations to win. The casualty rate in the beginning is usually very high, as we seen in the early 1900's with a strain of flu. The problem now with it is, that we have used so many antibiotics over the years now, that they are becoming ineffective.......and some of those strains of viruses (or their effects) have mutated and become resistant to meds. Because we have treated a lot of illnesses "artificially" with meds for years, and our natural immune systems didn't have to do all the work, we are now facing medical crisis in many areas that only a few years ago were considered a cake walk by the medical proffession most of the time.

    I'm not gonna give much clout to that Ms. Levi's research yet, other that to say that we do know that eating certain things can help to boost our (and goats) immune systems..........but I have my doubts that her statements are backed by actual documented clinical research......but rather believe it is based her "theory".

  10. Ashley

    Ashley Active Member

    Her research from what I know is all hands on type stuff. Things she's learned to keeping animals, and from different people she's been in contact with (including gypsies). She is in her 80's, she wrote books a few years ago.
  11. New Member

    IF you had a CAE positive animal, and you were able to cure it, killing all the virus from it's system, would it's antibodies drop over time, so that the animal could test negative again and cure could be proven?

    There is no if, HIV, CAE, OPP are auto immune diseases, they aren't cureable.

    So herbs can cure HIV also? Sure we know advanced medicines can make the virus undetected in the body, but stop taking the cocktail and it is back, and usually with a vengence. So talking about CAE in this same vein is simply hocus pocus. At the very least it is inflamatory....especially when you start talking about herbal cures.

    Any goat with CL, CAE etc....has an easier life, from less stress if it stays home and is not moved, most does will never again have an abscess, most does never had symptoms of CAE in their home, it wasn't until after the sell. So saying my does were all negative because they were not symptomatic and I was feeding them herbs, is only part of the story because once moved, they became symptomatic and tested positive even on AGID tests.

    The artifical rearing that was talked about was the pooling of raw colostrum and raw milk and feeding it to all the kids in the herd. Natural rearing was nursing mom. If one doe in your herd was positive and you lambar feed you just infected the whole herd by using her milk or colostrum raw. If one doe in your herd is positive and you dam raise, only her kids are that way we 'man made the virus' go into animals that would never have had it before.

    It's at touchy subject to me, to steer new people into thinking that this virus is fine, don't test, just give them this or that and they will be fine. When nothing is further than the truth and when you have a CAE positive symptomatic doe...and know nothing helps, listening to this line of thought, which has been going on since the 80' just pisses you off. Test, cull, don't sell goats who are positive, eat them. If you aren't going to test than don't tell new people that you have negative stock because you don't have symptoms or you purchased from those who do test. Vicki
  12. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    Vicki, For the fact that negative test results doesn't always mean negative goat(s), I'm not gonna give those guarantees at this point in time. I'm not gonna whip out a piece of paper from the lab that shows neg. results, and then turn right around in the same breath, and say BTW, these results may not be accurate........and CAE can go undetected in goats for several years, and so 6 years from now, this goat may turn out to be positive. Trying to market anything this way makes no sense. That's as bad as giving some mechanic $50 to write up a clean bill of health on a used car, and then turn around and sell it with a ten mile, ten minute warranty, or which ever comes first.
    Since I'm one of those weirdo's that believe that the benefits from Dam raised raw milk feeding is irreplaceable by anything else, I'm not real sure how to be 100% honest with folks, except to say that I believe I have a CAE negative goat(s), because I have test results that says they're negative, and I have not seen any symptoms of CAE in my herd.
    Until negative results, mean 99.5% negative goat(s) ......I think I'll stick with the way I sell now.
    I'm just not sure how to be completely honest with folks doing it any other way. How do you guarantee from things that can hide and go undetected, and can live without ever causing a symptom.

    Enough to drive us all crazy ain't it.

  13. Ashley

    Ashley Active Member

    Most things in life aren't guaranteed Whim. That's the nature of life. You do the best you know and hope for the best.

    I don't see how anyone can say any disease is impossible to cure, just because we don't understand how it could be. To say we don't know how it could be cured, sure that's makes sense, but to say never? I don't think any human being can say never. There is WAY too much we don't understand or know, especially about the human (or animal) body. We don't know anything.
  14. Tracy in Idaho

    Tracy in Idaho Member

    Look at the facts from --

    "Unfortunately, breastfeeding can also transmit HIV. Among women who are infected with HIV and receive no antiretroviral treatment or other interventions, breastfeeding for two or more years can double the rate of mother-to-child transmission to around 40% (the rest of the transmission occurs during pregnancy, labour and delivery). In Africa, between one third and one half of infant HIV infections are due to breastfeeding.4"

    Long quote here -- and I would guess this applies to CAE in goats as well!

    "If an HIV-positive mother chooses to breastfeed then there are several things she can do to lower the chances of her baby becoming infected. The first of these is exclusive breastfeeding. Four major studies have shown that mixed feeding – giving other foods or liquids as well as breast milk – should be avoided because it substantially increases the chances of HIV transmission and death.17 18 19 20 Breast milk provides all of the fluids and nutrients that a young baby requires, so even water can and should be avoided.

    Although it is not fully understood why mixed feeding leads to such a high risk of HIV transmission, it is thought likely that the extra foods and liquids damage the infant’s immature digestive system, making it easier for HIV in breast milk to enter the tissues. In addition, mixed feeding may introduce harmful germs, and may reduce gut acidity, making it easier for infections to take hold. Mixed feeding is therefore never advisable during the first few months of a baby’s life, regardless of the mother’s HIV status. "

  15. coso

    coso Guest

    What a lot of herds do is advertise that they are on CAE prevention. Not that they are CAE negative. I myself like to see test results before I purchase. The reason? I started out with 4 CAE positive goats. They are all gone now and have been for a while but it would have saved me a lot of stressing if I had had all the facts. I don't even blame the lady I bought them from she is kind of the mindset that as long as they are not symptomatic that they are OK and can pass immunity to there kids. I just didn't know enough about goats to know the difference. That's why it's buyer beware, learn what you need to ask, learn what you need to look for and most importantly buy from a breeder that is trustworthy and dilligent in keeping up with the latest information that is out there.
  16. Halo-M Nubians

    Halo-M Nubians New Member

    Here's an interesting quote in from one of my email conversation with one of the bioTracking guys

    "Well to begin with, CAE is not really an auto-immune disease. In other words, the animal is not producing antibodies against a normally occurring protein in the animal in question - be it goats or humans. CAE is the result of infection by a retrovirus in the subfamily called lentiviruses, and as with most lentivirus infections, the animal is infected for life."

    I thought that was interesting...about not being an auto-immune-I didn't realize there was a difference, I've been meaning to look both definitions up. Of course the point is the same-INFECTED FOR LIFE

    Here I looked it up: CAE in a nutshell isn't it:

    "Lentivirus (lenti-, Latin for "slow") is a genus of slow viruses of the Retroviridae family, characterized by a long incubation period. Lentiviruses can deliver a significant amount of genetic information into the DNA of the host cell, so they are one of the most efficient methods of a gene delivery vector. HIV, SIV, and FIV are all examples of lentiviruses."

    An auto immune disease is when your body attacks itself and substances that are normally present. Like Lupus and Celiac etc.

  17. Ashley

    Ashley Active Member

    The only reason the body is destroying its own cells with CAE is to destroy the virus the cell is harboring, correct?