Breeding for Udders and milk production

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by Daniel Babcock, Oct 7, 2008.

  1. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    I have been looking closley at my breeding plans for this year and for future years. Trying to find scientific proofs to improve my herd. I am suprised at the number of breeders I have spoken with that just kinda guess, on which buck to breed to a certain doe, rather than looking at the heritability of traits.

    I had a discussion last night with a breeder I have a great deal of respect for, I explained to her that I was attempting to improve the udders on my does. She suggested that if I wanted to improve the mammary system of my goats that the best way to do it is to find a buck who's dam has the udder characteristics I am looking for. She then suggested that the sire affects the udder more than the dam does.

    As I understood it, a dam with a poor udder can throw kids with very good udders if the udder of the sires mother is excellent.

    Is this information correct?

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. ecftoggs

    ecftoggs New Member

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    Daniel,
    I would agree as we closely look at the udder on the mother of our future sires as we don't want a buck out there throwing bad udders. :sigh Now, that being said even though we think we have made the perfect mating on paper it just sometimes doesn't work out in real life.
    Great + Great does not = Perfection!! :mad
    We have repeated breedings expecting a similar animal to what we already have and we get something close but not quite.
    If you use the right buck an udder can be an easy thing to fix in one generation. We had a buck here (thankfully collected) that could put a fore-udder on all his off-spring. We then had to turn around and use a buck that could correct the posty rear leg set he threw - so the cycle of wanting that Great Goat continues.
    Mary
     

  3. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    Mary- thanks for the response

    In my limited experience, there is no such thing as perfection in goat conformation :/ :biggrin. With that said, because I am so new, I would be very happy with just some "good milkers" from my first breedings. What I am hoping to find out by asking this question is the genetic genotype for udders. In my limited understanding the Y chromosome of the male carries certain attributes that are passed to the males offspring. Is udder conformation one of these traits or does it come from the dam?

    I am trying to purchase and start with foundation stock for my herd. Do I spend $1000 on an excellent doe or $1000 on an excelent buck? Acknowleding that the buck will service multiple does and that his positive traits can effect many more kids, it makes some sense that a good buck would be the way to go.

    However, If I breed an excellent doe to a good buck and the doe throws an excellent buck then . . . well hopefully you all see my quandry.

    Because I am just getting started with my herd, I want to try and be a little ahead of the curve so five years from now I don't say

    If only I would have started with . . . . . . (a better buck or better does as foundation stock) . . . . .then I would not have to fix so many things.

    Thaks again!
     
  4. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Fairly certain we have the breeding characteristics sticky, that gives you the percentage of heritablity of most traits we breed for in goats....in goatkeeping 101.

    For myself I want family lines that are proven performers. No matter what you are wanting to improve or breed for. I don't want just A dam with a good udder that my buck is out of, but families of dams, sons that are used successfully in herds I admire etc.

    I breed a bloodline, not a breed, by condensing that genepool down so the bloodline has the highest percentage in your paperwork, improves you. It's important to understand also the quality of what you are starting with. Some does themselves can have very strong maternal lines...I have one here, bred to different bucks she still throws really nice kids, even when the buck is not throwing good kids for me on other lines that are similar.

    Having a buck kid out of a superior dam line to yours, and when the quality of your home does is poor, that does not mean to get improvement you need a $1200 buck.

    I like buying from herds that when I open their website, I can tell exactly what their linebreeding on. I don't buy from those who have outcross breedings.

    And with kidding season starting:

    Do not purchase an outcross buck from a major breeder. If you want a XXXX bloodline buck from XXXX herd. Than make sure it is an XXXX dam and a XXXX sire, and not a new buckling she purchased this year who is an outcross from ZZZZ. It will likely do you no good at all. The best buy is the buckling out of XXXX herd that is soo linebred on her herd she would have a very hard time using him on her herd. Nearly inbred bucks are a very good thing for you if you are bringing the bloodline in. Vicki
     
  5. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    """" Some does themselves can have very strong maternal lines...V """"


    You better believe it. :biggrin

    .....and Daniel, if you are talking about mini LM's....then you are gonna see some ND influence with them for sure.
    From what I've seen so far, ND dam's have a lot of influence on their doeling offspring......especially in the udder department.
    I'm not saying that a sire with a good dam won't help you, because he will. What I'm saying is if you are raising out of dam's with poor udders, then don't be surprised if her offspring has poor udders too.

    JMO, Whim
     
  6. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Daniel have you also thought about doing it on your own in a different way. Say purchasing a really excellent ND buckling, from say Ken or Tricia on this forum? Out of their really nice showstock with udder you admire, and breeding him into your best mini mancha, or even purchasing a really nice LaMancha doeling from say Sara :) Starting this whole minimancha herd in your farm with the first cross out of spectacular animals? Keeping the best milker's son to cross back into this truly crossbred animal, back over a few times? I would love to do this...alas I have Nubians to spend money on :) Vicki
     
  7. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    Vicki-

    That is exactly what I am getting at. I am looking for an excellent FB LaMancha doe, that I can breed to one of the very good 50% Mini-Mancha bucks that I have.

    Thereby starting my own line of 75% Mini-Manchas. I want to do this right the first time with "spectacular animals . . . . . V" so I don't have to spend years and dollars trying to fiix major problems but instead iron out through line breeding some of the flaws.

    So, I need to find a buck and a doe that are very line bred so I know what genetics they both will bring to the herd? Right. Then from that breeding take a buck to breed to my existing does and begin from there??? Is this correct.

    Thanks for your input!
     
  8. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    Vicki said:

    "I like buying from herds that when I open their website, I can tell exactly what their linebreeding on. I don't buy from those who have outcross breedings."

    How far back in the pedigree do I want to verify linebreeding? Three or four generations or more? Thanks
     
  9. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    A ND buck and a LaMancha doe can't be linebred because you are the one outcrossing the two breeds yourself. But in purchasing your LaMancha doeling you would want to make sure she is linebred over consistantly nicer does than you have. Better udders, better feet and legs, better (just insert whatever you need here).

    So in purchasing this doeling whose dam is nice, the dams sire is nice, and their is progreny that is nice throughout the pedigrees...than breeding her to your buck you already have as long as he his showing you he is as nice (we really want him better) than the doe you purchased it would give you the linbred buckling you could use over his sons.

    New folks in goats ask: Can I buy a trio from you that will include an unrelated sire? I would ask, can I purchase a trio from you which includes a linebred buck...otherwise what are you doing wanting that line.

    Before the ADGA genetics site you really had to do alot of homework and keep years worth of sales lists to find out whom is who....now with a click of the mouse you have the linebreeding percentages of the goats you are looking at. By making sure the doeling you are purchasing is linebred on the bloodline you admire, you can know there isn't alot of outcrossing going on. The nice thing with you is that stature won't be such a problem, with alot of really nice Lamancha's lacking stature. Vicki
     
  10. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    I meant to say I need to find a buck (buck a)that comes from good linebreeding (a mini-mancha buck), and a doe (doe) that comes from good linebreeding (Lamancha doe) from and entirely different farm.

    Then breed these two together and start my new line or strain of mini manchas from them. Is this correct?

    Then I would use a buck that came buck a and doe a and breed him back to daughters from doe a???

    is this correct?
     
  11. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Use your best MM Buck on you new LaMancha doe don't save the buck from this breeding (at least I don't , unless he is exceptional then would breed him to some of my MM does) the bred Father to daughter.
     
  12. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    Sondra-

    Thanks for the help. As I understand it, breed my best MM buck(A) to this excellent LaMancha doe(B). From their kids, don't keep a buck unless he is exceptional. If I keep a buck from (A) and (B) then I breed him with who?

    IF (A) and (B) have does, then breed them back to their father? This is inbreeding right, and will bring out both genetic strengths and weaknesses.
     
  13. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    OK this is the way I would do it if I wanted to improve my udders. I would be getting a LaMancha buck with great milk lines and breed him to my MM does. Now say I have doe A/B/C/D and I have twins from all of them now I have doeling a/b/c/d and buckling a/b/c/d I would save for my herd the best buck from one of those does and the best doelings from all of them sell off the rest or butcher for my family and dogs. Next year I would bred my buckling that I kep to all does a/b/c/d/ and also if I had another MM buck in my flock I would breed two of the new doelings to the old buck and two to the new buckling now I have second gen kids out of these doelings and a new batch of doeling out of orignal does. Then I start playing either breeding back to dad or one of my other bucks. Being prepared to cull cull cull
    I like my 1st 2nd and 3rd gen but as they get to 4th they are too small for my liking. I never keep a buckling of any gen that has elf ears and prefer to keep only does with the same however if they have great udders and nice teats heavy producers I don't care what their ears are.
     
  14. ali923

    ali923 New Member

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    So...let me get this straight. You would be breeding a half brother to all the does you kept? Did I understand that right? Also, I never really understood the greatness of linebreeding until last year. That being said, I also just got a buck last year from a dam and sire with great lines, whom I admire. This buck was not linebred. So, should I start my linebreeding by breeding the does that I keep from him back to him?
     
  15. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    In Nubains you are just shooting yourself in the foot not linebreeding. But we are talking about a new breed, really experimental in which your wanting a very linebred LaMancha doeling as nice as you can afford to become the foundation of your program and either breeding her Nigerian Dwarf or to your best mini mancha buck (if he is the same quality as the doeling. Then yes taking a son of hers to use on all your does, then then perhaps even a son of his out of this first doe or a better mini. By in the mean time sharing the wealth with other breeders using this doelings progeny, you then have linebred animals in other herds to 'outcross' over to when you get to tight.

    Look at a top Nubian herd, she has bucks in her herd that although come from her line aren't her herd name...why? Because she has put a really nice animal into a customers herd, then becomes friends and then buys a kid back who is out of her stock, but put together with other bloodlines who are also related to her...a perfect outcross buckling that isn't really an outcross, just not a line she uses. Vicki
     
  16. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    Do you cross a buck back to his mother in this situation with the Mini-Manchas?
     
  17. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Yes, but always only if it's an improvement. In your situation the buck you have, how good is the dams udder? You may want to condense the gene pool down towards the doeling you purchase and not down towards the stock you have by bringing in as much of her as you can using her daughters and her sons....not your bucks...ie...are there better does in your herd than your bucks dam? Using one of their sons, her son, over daughters of her son and no longer using your buck. Vicki
     
  18. Daniel Babcock

    Daniel Babcock Member

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    Vicki and Others-

    This is exciting for me! I wish I did not have to wait a full year in between kiddings to see how everything will turn out. I really feel the info received on this forum has shotened my learning curve! Thanks for continuing to answer all of my questions.
     
  19. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    This thread is teaching me ALOT. The mistake I made when getting my registered Saanens was to buy an outcrossed bucking. He's nice in the ways I was looking for then - deep, long body- but now I see that he has bad legs that came through that outcross... Live and learn!
     
  20. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    Ah, the curse and the joy of breeding goats. What do you think keeps us all coming back again and again? A bunch of mad scientists, waiting on a goats' timetable! ROFLOL