Breeding : CIDRs-ongoing

Quote:
I am new to the group and have enjoyed reading the past replies on using CIDR's. I have used them for AI'in for two years now and learn more every time. I bought 25 in July and have been using them since August. People put them in for varying amount of times - from 5 to 21 days. Most Cidrs have enough progestrone in them to last 40 days and I didn't know this at first. This year, I have been reusing them and things are still working out great.
Another use is to get animals to stick that may not have been so lucky before. Inserting on in after breeding can help keep a pregnancy. They use this in the cow industry. Also, if you accidentally place one in an animal that is already pregnant, it will not cause an abortion - using the PG 600 with it, may.
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Marge Brutscher

Gleaned from DG+:
I copied this from Alpine talk... It's more information than I had on the use of CIDRs.Hope it is informative.
Kaye

Hi--Here is a possible clarification of what happens with the use of CIDRs and
hormones from Dr.Brian McOnie, who has done several superovulations and embryo
transfers for me. Geraldine Goodman (Qu'appelle Alpines)
----- Original Message -----
From: Creekside Animal Clinic Ltd.
To: Geraldine Goodman
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [AlpineTalk] breeding with cidrs

Hi Geraldine:

Thanks for forwarding the correspondence from Jonathan Bland posted on the
Alpine chat group. I think it important to clarify what has the potential to
become a misconception in the goat breeding community.

The email suggests the CIDRs were the cause of the quintuplets. This is not
likely. The CIDR device contains the hormone progesterone which will arrest
cyclicity but will not stimulate multiple ovulations required for quintuplets to
occur. Therefore CIDRs are very useful in controlled breeding programs where
synchronization of estrous cycles and heats (estrus) is desirable - for example
in embryo transfer programs or artificial insemination. To help ensure that
does come into heat and ovulate following the removal of the CIDR device, an
injection of eCG (or PMSG as it is sometimes known) is given at the time of CIDR
removal.

In the US, eCG is commercially available in combination with another hormone -
hCG - in a product called P.G. 600.
Using a higher than necessary dose of eCG, either alone or in the form of P.G.
600, will cause mild superovulation - or the release of a higher than normal
number of eggs from the does ovaries. The dose of eCG required during the
normal breeding season is almost always lower than outside that time.

It is likely that the quintuplets referred to were caused by the dose of P.G.
600, and more specifically the eCG contained therein, and not the CIDRs
themselves. Does are very sensitive to hormones we administer them, and
differences between and even within breeds can be expected.

If this is unclear please let me know - if you think it worthwhile, possibly you
could submit this to the Alpine group for their consideration.

Bye - Brian

eCG = equine chorionic gonadotrophin (same as PMSG)
PMSG = pregnant mare serum gonadotrophin
hCG = human chorionic gonadotrophin
P.G. 600 = 400 IU PMSG and 200 IU hCG per 5mL
CIDR = controlled intravaginal drug release - contains progesterone

Creekside Animal Clinic Ltd.
5001 - 24th. Street
Vernon, B.C.
V1T 8X7
T 250.549.3533 F 250.549.1351
http://www.creeksideanimalclinic.com/
[email protected]
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:22 am Post subject:

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copied from DG+ and edited to clean up posts.

Quote:
*NOTE* ~CIDRs are NO LONGER SHIPPED into the US by ANY SUPPLIER until they get FDA approval. SSW is sold out,as are some other suppliers.

Nov.19,2005:
Now,keep in mind I'm new at this-1st year to use! And I will own up to my mistakes and pass 'em on! [Embarassed] Yes,I have a CIDR in a doeling right now for the AI clinic on the 27th.I'm cheating and having Geoff AI her to Whinchezter. [Wink] Let the pro do it! But I've also tracked this doeling through 2 heat cycles so I know she is ready to breed.

One thing Geoff told me...CIDRs are used to keep the does out of heat-sync and all that...and your buck is working hard to bring that doe into heat-so pen your does with CIDRs away from bucks.

Protocol I used on last two does with CIDRs: I waited until the does had had one cycle...inserted Cidrs,waited until 21st day....gave shot of PG600 in A.M. pulled Cidrs at P.M.- 24hrs. later one doe was in heat other wasn't?(I'm thinking maybe because she was next to buck?) Anyway,I bred the doe that came in just like I would a doe without a CIDR-mucous type,in heat 18hrs.ect... she settled! Really nice part-I didn't seat the straw in the sheath tight enough...1/2 the semen backwashed into sheath!And she still settled.Course it only takes a few sperm,but with my luck-without the cidr and shot...she wouldn't have settled! Anyway,other doe cycled about 7 days later.I've got a cidr in her,again,for the clinic,moved out of sight and sound of buck and no sign of heat so far.

This time: I am giving PG 600 48hrs. before removal of CIDR(day 21).Per instructions- Will post update after clinic on 27th and let you know how it turned out this time.<stupid> should know after this one which I prefer. Hopefully with Geoff's help...both will settle.
Kaye

Tracy in Idaho
Whoa -- 21 days????

Everything I have via the Biogenics clinic and the web says you pull the CIDR at 14 days. I even have in my notes where she said that longer than 14 days can cause irritiation to the vagina! That's what OK State has online too --
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/course/3443/study/Estrus/sychron/sld015.htm

I'm trying to track down my notebook -- just curious where the 21 day protocol came from?

This page suggests only 10 days: http://www.srgenetics.com/client.htm and then interestingly, teasing with a buck 24 hours after removal.

17 days on this one: http://www.powellholman.com/reference/ref_01.html

Pretty cool on the doe settling even with all the splashback!!!!

Tracy -- off to hunt down my stuff
Tracy in Idaho

Okay, found my stuff.

I have CIDR in for 14 days -- or at least 9 days. Give lute 24 hours before you pull CIDR.

I also have give PG600 (1.5 cc) when you pull the CIDR.

I need to check with her and find out whether you do both or just one drug?

Tracy
[Post] Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:01 pm Post subject: CIDRS [Reply with quote]
Tracy,
NOW,your getting into what I've run up against....no method is tried and true and there's lots of different protocols. [Confused]

On my instruction sheet on back of CIDRs is says:
Goats -1.During the breeding season Eazi-breed CIDR are inserted for 18-21 days. 2.For frozen semen PMSG (or PG 600) at a dose rate of 200-400 iu(I used 2 1/2 cc) is recommended 48hrs. before device removal.
*I also know of a lady in Mo. who used lute and it worked.* Lute would definately be cheaper than PG 600.And you don't have to throw the unused portion out.

Sheep- 1.During the breeding season Eazi-breed Cidr are inserted for 12-14 days.
2.For frozen semen insemination,PMSG at dose rate of 400iu is recommended at device withdrawal.
*Note: With sheep and goats,the use of vasectomised rams or bucks is recommended prior to insemination.* Uh,no thank you....I'll just keep a fence between them.But,I was told to let the does near the buck at withdrawal.

Cool on the websites...have them bookmarked for future reading/reference.
I also talked to a boer breeder the other night that has been studying under someone in Tx...can't remember name...on ET work being done on boers..and he also said to pull CIDRs at 14 days.(?)
If it will work on dairy goats...think of the time saved...insert Cidr,pull at 14 days..inseminate at 15-16 days(on heat) wait 21 days to see if return heat.
Saving a week...if I could find a reliable source to check for preg before 21 days...I wouldn't have to wait the 21 days.

It's still all so new here,that it's a little confusing.I'm still not convinced that it's actually better than just plain ole' AI. [Wink] Think I will go a lot further into studies this winter...after I see if these last two does settle with the use of CIDRs.It's getting late in the breeding season and I really don't want May babies.
Kaye
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Tracy in Idaho

[Post] Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:08 pm Post subject: [Reply with quote]
Kaye, you're killing me here <G>

I'm waiting to hear back from Pat Hendrickson again -- she told me that she has a 90% success rate overall doing AI, and that she has NEVER put in a sponge on a doe that didn't take. So I will pass along her secret when I get it [Smile]

She did tell me she only had a 50% rate using lute to bring a doe in -- she said it makes the timing harder.

I'll let you know if I hear more. OH, and did you read on some of those pages that they are saying the PG600 will adversely affect future fertility?

Tracy

[Post] Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject: cidrs [Reply with quote]
LOL....yea,I know what you mean!!!!!! <G> [Twisted Evil] It will be your turn next year to help in some of this worry! [Wink] But it's so satisfying to have those AI babies come out looking like you had dreamed of!!!

I can see the *future* reproductivity....because females are only "granted" so many eggs and if <GASP> they drop x# of eggs with the PG 600,that's cuts down on the end.Makes sense. Still need more info from woman that used it with CIDRs instead of PG 600.

I've had the same luck with Lute,they come into heat...but not a fertile heat...no settle.That's where I learned to chart that first heat!! AND that's why I am likeing these CIDRs more and more.

You pass any info you get ....especially from Pat..she's been doing it a *lot* longer than most...<VBG> along to me!!! I need all the input I can get and little details sure cuts out the uh,ohs!! [Wink]

Johnathan Bland is one I've corresponded with about the use of PG 600 and he had quints [Shocked] He also is cutting his doses back this year...waiting to see how he makes out! [Wink]

Now,everyone knows why I need prozac through breeding season!! [Shocked] BUT...I can't hardly wait until those AI babies hit the ground...to see if genetics click!!! LOL...time not spent worrying about breeding details is spent pouring over LA scores and picking them to death!!!

Kaye

Lonesome Doe Nubians
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 2180
Location: Cleveland TX
[Post] Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:09 am Post subject: [Reply with quote]
Do either of you know if Pat still has her AI/reproductive site on Yahoogroups? It was excellent the archives would make a great booklet!

Keep finding this thread to post to so those of us who want this information can print it out when you two wind down. I would love to have Johnathan chime in, perhaps ask for permission to forward his emails. Ric talks so highly of him also.

Tell us how it goes and what ends up working for both of you, thanks Tracy and Kaye! Vicki
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Vicki McGaugh
North of Houston TX

[Post] Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:08 am Post subject: cidrs [Reply with quote]
[Laughing] [Wink] Watch,Tracy,next year Vicki will be dragging out and dusting off that AI tank and asking...."Just where was it you guys bought those CIDRs"! [Cool]

Not sure on the repro groups.There's one called AIAllgoats...but it's not very active nor informative.?

[Post] Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject: CIDRS [Reply with quote]
YAHOO....AI clinic was a success! 35 people attended [Shocked] We collected 6 bucks.

Now for CIDRs- [Confused] had 5 does with CIDRs-3 of a friends and 2 of mine.His 3 and 1 of mine came in like clockwork.
PG600 given on 23rd...CIDRs pulled on 25th.4 of the 5 does were coming into heat on am of the 26th.By 11:00 a.m. on the 27th all 4 does were in the right time (mucous consistancy) to breed.

But,using Johnathan's method...PG 600 a.m.-pull Cidrs p.m on 21 days...I got the same results.Think I like the Johnathan's method better. [Wink] Do it all on same day.

The one of mine-same doe that messed up on first CIDR didn't come in! [Evil or Very Mad] She came in rip roaring heat on 11/30! So...she doesn't get any more CIDRs! Bred her to buck....not taking any chances with semen on her.

[Wink] I liked the results well enough I splurged and bought 20 CIDRs and even broke down and bought applicator! Another note* when implanting CIDRs make sure the wings are to the side-not up and down.They've been known to cause irritation to the vaginal track in this postition.?And...to keep nosey LGD/goats from pulling them out-cut the little ball off the end of string.And use red finger nail polish on string end to make visability better. [Wink] Just passing it on.

To a lighter note...I've bred 7 out of 10 of my does AI this year-2 to buck and 1 June kid-not breeding.Results: waiting on 1- and 6 have settled AI! [Very Happy] [Very Happy] Best of ALL....3 of them are doelings-2 settles-1 waiting on(<g> if she doesn't settle-it's Geoff's fault-but it was a very easy breeding!!!)

[Very Happy] [Very Happy] Can hardly wait until kidding season this year....Xmas is coming late!

Tracy,
I did talk to a boer breeder that uses CIDRs and the 14 day method and he said he didn't get but about 65-70 % of his does in heat with this method.He went to the 21 day and only 2 out of 25 does were not in heat.? He runs something like 250 head! [Shocked] Anyway...I'm trying to find out more info on the "short-cycle" before next breeding season.
Kaye
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Lonesome Doe Nubians
ost] Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:45 pm Post subject: [Reply with quote]
Kaye them are some deserved braggable results! Great job, and thanks for all the clear information! Vicki
_________________
Vicki McGaugh
North of Houston TX

Tracy in Idaho
[Post] Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:37 pm Post subject: [Reply with quote]
Those are great results!!!

Okay, I am printing this all out and stuffing it in my AI book for next year! By golly, one way or another, SOMEONE is getting bred AI, lol.

On giving PG600 and pulling the same day, is it about 12 hours apart?

Tracy
[Post] Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:00 pm Post subject: Cidrs [Reply with quote]
Yes,Tracy.He(Jonathan) plainly states,"12 hrs. after the shot...pull the CIDR."

BTW....CIDRs were only $5.00 ea. this year....last year I paid $7.50.Geoff said they had went down and he was passing the savings on. [Cool]
Kaye
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Tracy in Idaho

[Post] Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:12 pm Post subject: [Reply with quote]
Kaye, do the CIDRs have an expiration date on them?

Tracy
[Post] Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:16 pm Post subject: cidrs [Reply with quote]
Yes, 10/2006. I remember being told last year....after I open the package to store in refrigerator until used. <G> [Twisted Evil] Like the Ob/gyn Dr.s keep their instruments in the refrig.?

But,I presume it's like anything else,if kept out of heat,sunlight,ect...they are good past the expired date.

Kaye
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First off Pacific Vet in Aus is the way to go. At your door in 3 to 4 days. Implant CIDR and 36 hours prior to removal on a full grown doe 3.5 cc of PG 600. pull CIDR at 10 to 15 days any longer you run into infection problems and the CIDR wanting to stick to the inner walls and its painful for the doe. This is the protical for goats out of season we use and have had about 75% conception rate. also in younger does you may want to clip off about 1/4 in. off the end because other goats or themselves like to pull them out. You can also remove them clean with soap and water and disenfect in Nolvasan are reuse.
amlkman- Cal.
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Tivio Toggs
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