Breeding : CIDRs-ongoing

Discussion in 'Health & Wellness' started by Sondra, Oct 26, 2007.

  1. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Quote:
    I am new to the group and have enjoyed reading the past replies on using CIDR's. I have used them for AI'in for two years now and learn more every time. I bought 25 in July and have been using them since August. People put them in for varying amount of times - from 5 to 21 days. Most Cidrs have enough progestrone in them to last 40 days and I didn't know this at first. This year, I have been reusing them and things are still working out great.
    Another use is to get animals to stick that may not have been so lucky before. Inserting on in after breeding can help keep a pregnancy. They use this in the cow industry. Also, if you accidentally place one in an animal that is already pregnant, it will not cause an abortion - using the PG 600 with it, may.
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    Gleaned from DG+:
    I copied this from Alpine talk... It's more information than I had on the use of CIDRs.Hope it is informative.
    Kaye


    Hi--Here is a possible clarification of what happens with the use of CIDRs and
    hormones from Dr.Brian McOnie, who has done several superovulations and embryo
    transfers for me. Geraldine Goodman (Qu'appelle Alpines)
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Creekside Animal Clinic Ltd.
    To: Geraldine Goodman
    Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:35 PM
    Subject: Re: [AlpineTalk] breeding with cidrs


    Hi Geraldine:

    Thanks for forwarding the correspondence from Jonathan Bland posted on the
    Alpine chat group. I think it important to clarify what has the potential to
    become a misconception in the goat breeding community.

    The email suggests the CIDRs were the cause of the quintuplets. This is not
    likely. The CIDR device contains the hormone progesterone which will arrest
    cyclicity but will not stimulate multiple ovulations required for quintuplets to
    occur. Therefore CIDRs are very useful in controlled breeding programs where
    synchronization of estrous cycles and heats (estrus) is desirable - for example
    in embryo transfer programs or artificial insemination. To help ensure that
    does come into heat and ovulate following the removal of the CIDR device, an
    injection of eCG (or PMSG as it is sometimes known) is given at the time of CIDR
    removal.

    In the US, eCG is commercially available in combination with another hormone -
    hCG - in a product called P.G. 600.
    Using a higher than necessary dose of eCG, either alone or in the form of P.G.
    600, will cause mild superovulation - or the release of a higher than normal
    number of eggs from the does ovaries. The dose of eCG required during the
    normal breeding season is almost always lower than outside that time.

    It is likely that the quintuplets referred to were caused by the dose of P.G.
    600, and more specifically the eCG contained therein, and not the CIDRs
    themselves. Does are very sensitive to hormones we administer them, and
    differences between and even within breeds can be expected.

    If this is unclear please let me know - if you think it worthwhile, possibly you
    could submit this to the Alpine group for their consideration.

    Bye - Brian

    eCG = equine chorionic gonadotrophin (same as PMSG)
    PMSG = pregnant mare serum gonadotrophin
    hCG = human chorionic gonadotrophin
    P.G. 600 = 400 IU PMSG and 200 IU hCG per 5mL
    CIDR = controlled intravaginal drug release - contains progesterone

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    Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:22 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    copied from DG+ and edited to clean up posts.

    Quote:
    *NOTE* ~CIDRs are NO LONGER SHIPPED into the US by ANY SUPPLIER until they get FDA approval. SSW is sold out,as are some other suppliers.



    Nov.19,2005:
    Now,keep in mind I'm new at this-1st year to use! And I will own up to my mistakes and pass 'em on! [Embarassed] Yes,I have a CIDR in a doeling right now for the AI clinic on the 27th.I'm cheating and having Geoff AI her to Whinchezter. [Wink] Let the pro do it! But I've also tracked this doeling through 2 heat cycles so I know she is ready to breed.

    One thing Geoff told me...CIDRs are used to keep the does out of heat-sync and all that...and your buck is working hard to bring that doe into heat-so pen your does with CIDRs away from bucks.

    Protocol I used on last two does with CIDRs: I waited until the does had had one cycle...inserted Cidrs,waited until 21st day....gave shot of PG600 in A.M. pulled Cidrs at P.M.- 24hrs. later one doe was in heat other wasn't?(I'm thinking maybe because she was next to buck?) Anyway,I bred the doe that came in just like I would a doe without a CIDR-mucous type,in heat 18hrs.ect... she settled! Really nice part-I didn't seat the straw in the sheath tight enough...1/2 the semen backwashed into sheath!And she still settled.Course it only takes a few sperm,but with my luck-without the cidr and shot...she wouldn't have settled! Anyway,other doe cycled about 7 days later.I've got a cidr in her,again,for the clinic,moved out of sight and sound of buck and no sign of heat so far.

    This time: I am giving PG 600 48hrs. before removal of CIDR(day 21).Per instructions- Will post update after clinic on 27th and let you know how it turned out this time.<stupid> should know after this one which I prefer. Hopefully with Geoff's help...both will settle.
    Kaye

    Tracy in Idaho
    Whoa -- 21 days????

    Everything I have via the Biogenics clinic and the web says you pull the CIDR at 14 days. I even have in my notes where she said that longer than 14 days can cause irritiation to the vagina! That's what OK State has online too --
    http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/course/3443/study/Estrus/sychron/sld015.htm

    I'm trying to track down my notebook -- just curious where the 21 day protocol came from?

    This page suggests only 10 days: http://www.srgenetics.com/client.htm and then interestingly, teasing with a buck 24 hours after removal.

    17 days on this one: http://www.powellholman.com/reference/ref_01.html

    Pretty cool on the doe settling even with all the splashback!!!!

    Tracy -- off to hunt down my stuff
    Tracy in Idaho



    Okay, found my stuff.

    I have CIDR in for 14 days -- or at least 9 days. Give lute 24 hours before you pull CIDR.

    I also have give PG600 (1.5 cc) when you pull the CIDR.

    I need to check with her and find out whether you do both or just one drug?

    Tracy
    [Post] Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:01 pm Post subject: CIDRS [Reply with quote]
    Tracy,
    NOW,your getting into what I've run up against....no method is tried and true and there's lots of different protocols. [Confused]

    On my instruction sheet on back of CIDRs is says:
    Goats -1.During the breeding season Eazi-breed CIDR are inserted for 18-21 days. 2.For frozen semen PMSG (or PG 600) at a dose rate of 200-400 iu(I used 2 1/2 cc) is recommended 48hrs. before device removal.
    *I also know of a lady in Mo. who used lute and it worked.* Lute would definately be cheaper than PG 600.And you don't have to throw the unused portion out.

    Sheep- 1.During the breeding season Eazi-breed Cidr are inserted for 12-14 days.
    2.For frozen semen insemination,PMSG at dose rate of 400iu is recommended at device withdrawal.
    *Note: With sheep and goats,the use of vasectomised rams or bucks is recommended prior to insemination.* Uh,no thank you....I'll just keep a fence between them.But,I was told to let the does near the buck at withdrawal.

    Cool on the websites...have them bookmarked for future reading/reference.
    I also talked to a boer breeder the other night that has been studying under someone in Tx...can't remember name...on ET work being done on boers..and he also said to pull CIDRs at 14 days.(?)
    If it will work on dairy goats...think of the time saved...insert Cidr,pull at 14 days..inseminate at 15-16 days(on heat) wait 21 days to see if return heat.
    Saving a week...if I could find a reliable source to check for preg before 21 days...I wouldn't have to wait the 21 days.

    It's still all so new here,that it's a little confusing.I'm still not convinced that it's actually better than just plain ole' AI. [Wink] Think I will go a lot further into studies this winter...after I see if these last two does settle with the use of CIDRs.It's getting late in the breeding season and I really don't want May babies.
    Kaye
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    Tracy in Idaho



    [Post] Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:08 pm Post subject: [Reply with quote]
    Kaye, you're killing me here <G>

    I'm waiting to hear back from Pat Hendrickson again -- she told me that she has a 90% success rate overall doing AI, and that she has NEVER put in a sponge on a doe that didn't take. So I will pass along her secret when I get it [Smile]

    She did tell me she only had a 50% rate using lute to bring a doe in -- she said it makes the timing harder.

    I'll let you know if I hear more. OH, and did you read on some of those pages that they are saying the PG600 will adversely affect future fertility?

    Tracy

    [Post] Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject: cidrs [Reply with quote]
    LOL....yea,I know what you mean!!!!!! <G> [Twisted Evil] It will be your turn next year to help in some of this worry! [Wink] But it's so satisfying to have those AI babies come out looking like you had dreamed of!!!

    I can see the *future* reproductivity....because females are only "granted" so many eggs and if <GASP> they drop x# of eggs with the PG 600,that's cuts down on the end.Makes sense. Still need more info from woman that used it with CIDRs instead of PG 600.

    I've had the same luck with Lute,they come into heat...but not a fertile heat...no settle.That's where I learned to chart that first heat!! AND that's why I am likeing these CIDRs more and more.

    You pass any info you get ....especially from Pat..she's been doing it a *lot* longer than most...<VBG> along to me!!! I need all the input I can get and little details sure cuts out the uh,ohs!! [Wink]

    Johnathan Bland is one I've corresponded with about the use of PG 600 and he had quints [Shocked] He also is cutting his doses back this year...waiting to see how he makes out! [Wink]

    Now,everyone knows why I need prozac through breeding season!! [Shocked] BUT...I can't hardly wait until those AI babies hit the ground...to see if genetics click!!! LOL...time not spent worrying about breeding details is spent pouring over LA scores and picking them to death!!!

    Kaye


    Lonesome Doe Nubians
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    [Post] Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:09 am Post subject: [Reply with quote]
    Do either of you know if Pat still has her AI/reproductive site on Yahoogroups? It was excellent the archives would make a great booklet!

    Keep finding this thread to post to so those of us who want this information can print it out when you two wind down. I would love to have Johnathan chime in, perhaps ask for permission to forward his emails. Ric talks so highly of him also.

    Tell us how it goes and what ends up working for both of you, thanks Tracy and Kaye! Vicki
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    Vicki McGaugh
    North of Houston TX


    [Post] Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:08 am Post subject: cidrs [Reply with quote]
    [Laughing] [Wink] Watch,Tracy,next year Vicki will be dragging out and dusting off that AI tank and asking...."Just where was it you guys bought those CIDRs"! [Cool]

    Not sure on the repro groups.There's one called AIAllgoats...but it's not very active nor informative.?

    [Post] Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject: CIDRS [Reply with quote]
    YAHOO....AI clinic was a success! 35 people attended [Shocked] We collected 6 bucks.

    Now for CIDRs- [Confused] had 5 does with CIDRs-3 of a friends and 2 of mine.His 3 and 1 of mine came in like clockwork.
    PG600 given on 23rd...CIDRs pulled on 25th.4 of the 5 does were coming into heat on am of the 26th.By 11:00 a.m. on the 27th all 4 does were in the right time (mucous consistancy) to breed.

    But,using Johnathan's method...PG 600 a.m.-pull Cidrs p.m on 21 days...I got the same results.Think I like the Johnathan's method better. [Wink] Do it all on same day.

    The one of mine-same doe that messed up on first CIDR didn't come in! [Evil or Very Mad] She came in rip roaring heat on 11/30! So...she doesn't get any more CIDRs! Bred her to buck....not taking any chances with semen on her.

    [Wink] I liked the results well enough I splurged and bought 20 CIDRs and even broke down and bought applicator! Another note* when implanting CIDRs make sure the wings are to the side-not up and down.They've been known to cause irritation to the vaginal track in this postition.?And...to keep nosey LGD/goats from pulling them out-cut the little ball off the end of string.And use red finger nail polish on string end to make visability better. [Wink] Just passing it on.

    To a lighter note...I've bred 7 out of 10 of my does AI this year-2 to buck and 1 June kid-not breeding.Results: waiting on 1- and 6 have settled AI! [Very Happy] [Very Happy] Best of ALL....3 of them are doelings-2 settles-1 waiting on(<g> if she doesn't settle-it's Geoff's fault-but it was a very easy breeding!!!)

    [Very Happy] [Very Happy] Can hardly wait until kidding season this year....Xmas is coming late!

    Tracy,
    I did talk to a boer breeder that uses CIDRs and the 14 day method and he said he didn't get but about 65-70 % of his does in heat with this method.He went to the 21 day and only 2 out of 25 does were not in heat.? He runs something like 250 head! [Shocked] Anyway...I'm trying to find out more info on the "short-cycle" before next breeding season.
    Kaye
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    Lonesome Doe Nubians
    ost] Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:45 pm Post subject: [Reply with quote]
    Kaye them are some deserved braggable results! Great job, and thanks for all the clear information! Vicki
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    Tracy in Idaho
    [Post] Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:37 pm Post subject: [Reply with quote]
    Those are great results!!!

    Okay, I am printing this all out and stuffing it in my AI book for next year! By golly, one way or another, SOMEONE is getting bred AI, lol.

    On giving PG600 and pulling the same day, is it about 12 hours apart?

    Tracy
    [Post] Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:00 pm Post subject: Cidrs [Reply with quote]
    Yes,Tracy.He(Jonathan) plainly states,"12 hrs. after the shot...pull the CIDR."

    BTW....CIDRs were only $5.00 ea. this year....last year I paid $7.50.Geoff said they had went down and he was passing the savings on. [Cool]
    Kaye
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    Tracy in Idaho

    [Post] Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:12 pm Post subject: [Reply with quote]
    Kaye, do the CIDRs have an expiration date on them?

    Tracy
    [Post] Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:16 pm Post subject: cidrs [Reply with quote]
    Yes, 10/2006. I remember being told last year....after I open the package to store in refrigerator until used. <G> [Twisted Evil] Like the Ob/gyn Dr.s keep their instruments in the refrig.?

    But,I presume it's like anything else,if kept out of heat,sunlight,ect...they are good past the expired date.

    Kaye
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    First off Pacific Vet in Aus is the way to go. At your door in 3 to 4 days. Implant CIDR and 36 hours prior to removal on a full grown doe 3.5 cc of PG 600. pull CIDR at 10 to 15 days any longer you run into infection problems and the CIDR wanting to stick to the inner walls and its painful for the doe. This is the protical for goats out of season we use and have had about 75% conception rate. also in younger does you may want to clip off about 1/4 in. off the end because other goats or themselves like to pull them out. You can also remove them clean with soap and water and disenfect in Nolvasan are reuse.
    amlkman- Cal.
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  2. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Re: CIDRs-ongoing

    Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: Kaye-- CIDR timing?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hey Kaye -- I know we talked about this last year, but what did you finally settle on for the length of time to leave the CIDR in? 21 days, or did you ever try the 14 day protocol?

    I have some sitting in my fridge, so I guess I ought to try them this year at least, lol.

    Tracy
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    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians
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    Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thanks for asking this Tracy, I was going to ask Kaye if she had anything new to add to what she was doing with CIDR's and PG600 or anything hocus pocus to add before I start breeding 13 in October and 9 in November!! OH THOSE ARE SCARY NUMBERS!!!! Vicki
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    Kaye White



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    Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yeah, I was just looking over the doeling pen..scratching my head! How did I end up with soooo many doelings????

    Tracy....being the pessimist that I am...The does I have CIDR'ed right now...before actual breeding season(swiss), I'm leaving in 21 days. Logical reasoning, they haven't cycled yet, I am hoping that with the 21 day, I get a viable (breeding) heat.
    Now, I've got some that will get CIDRs in Oct., after they have cycled once.....those I plan to leave in 14 days and PG 600 them on the a.m. of the 14th day and pull CIDRs at the P.M. milking.
    8) Hey, it worked last year! Both does that I CIDR'ed in August settled on the 1st breeding...and hadn't cycled before I put the CIDR's in.
    Two does that I wanted to breed in late Oct. came into heat at the 14 day protocol, after cycling once, and they settled AI.

    Vicki, I would think with Nubians...you could safely use the 14 days, since they cycle earlier than most breeds. Also remember to "wash" the CIDRs and re-use them. :wink:
    Kaye
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    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians
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    Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:07 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thank you Kaye, I will let you know how it works :) All the girls have been in heat, so I like the idea of the 14 days. Yep I am washing and reusing, I have one that will have been used for the 3rd time in the same doe. Vicki
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    Tracy in Idaho



    Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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    Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:14 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ugh -- Kaye, I was just reviewing my notes from Biogenics' AI class, and I have down to Give the PG600 when you pull the CIDR?

    Actually -- I have put CIDR in for 14 days, or at least 9 days.
    Give lute 24 hrs before you pull CIDR.
    Pull CIDR and give PG600.
    Doe will be in heat 24 hours after you pull CIDR -- AI 24 hours after that.

    Sooo--- you and Jonathan both do the give PG600 am and then pull CIDR pm?

    Do they still come in 24 hours later? And you AI roughly 24 hours later?

    Tracy :?
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    Patty13637



    Joined: 06 Sep 2006
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    Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:38 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    OK since you brought it up any place I can buy some cidr's?


    thanks , Patty

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    Kaye White



    Joined: 04 Sep 2006
    Posts: 1645
    Location: Central Ark.
    Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:03 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Tracy, why are you giving lute and PG 600? Both work the same.?? If your going to get a heat...you will get it with either. Seems like a waste to me.

    I don't AI at a certain hr. from pulling CIDRs...I AI according to the does mucous and her individual cycle. ??
    The does I've CIDR'ed in the past have generally been in standing heat at 24hrs. or 24hrs. from pulling the CIDR. Only doe I had that came in 3 days after pull, no longer resides here! She was hard to settle either way and I didn't have time to waste on her!

    Patty try Biogenics and see if they have any. Last I heard...it was difficult to get them into the US. :)
    Kaye
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    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians
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    Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And have a decided on a PG600 dosage for this year :) LOL!!! Vicki
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    Kaye White



    Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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    Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:30 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm using 1 1/4cc per doe! I'm a little spooked about all the triplets I got last year! Especially since most will be 1st freshening yearlings! Would prefer twins outa' them!
    AND, hee,hee...I can use one bottle on 4 does!
    Kaye
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    wheytogosaanens



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    Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:49 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cut and Pasted, Cut and Pasted, Now it's all in Word Perfect...(to the tune of Oh My Darling, Clementine).

    Thanks for the good info Kaye.
    Can't wait to learn to AI so I can use all of this good info!

    Camille
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    Tracy in Idaho



    Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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    Location: Southcentral Idaho
    Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Kaye White wrote:
    Tracy, why are you giving lute and PG 600? Both work the same.?? If your going to get a heat...you will get it with either. Seems like a waste to me.
    Kaye


    Not a clue! <g> I have it in my notes, and Teresa Wade has it in her advance repro paper as well -- http://www2.luresext.edu/goats/training/advrepro.pdf

    Day 1: insert CIDR
    Day 13: 2cc Lute
    Day 14: 1.5 cc PG600/pull CIDR
    Day 15: Does shows signs of estrus
    Day 16: monitor and inseminate

    I know they are on tour now, so I can't ask her -- I'll see her on the 30th though.

    What PG600 dose did you do last year?

    Tracy
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    Kaye White



    Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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    Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Last year I used 2 1/2cc per doe.
    Kaye
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    Sondra



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    Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject:


    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians
    Site Admin

    I don't know how to open and copy a PDF format that Tracy just put up, but I guess we could just put the link up to Teresa's paper? If anyone knows how to copy to paste a PDF format tell me so we can have the paper readable on 101. Vicki
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    :? This document has a locked security and states:
    "You can not edit or copy this document."
    Which I don't blame her....it's lots of work she's done and was gracious enough to post on the internet.

    ?? just put the link and let them go to it. It's great info.
    Kaye
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    Tracy in Idaho



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    Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:18 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I was actually surprised to find it online at all! You're right, that document had to have been a lot of work.

    So any theories on why she says to do the lute as well as the PG600?

    Tracy
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    Old Dominion



    Joined: 09 Apr 2007
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    Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: Washing CIDR

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Exactly how do you wash a CIDR?

    Thanks -

    Jolene
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    Cotton Eyed Does



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    Location: New Waverly, Texas
    Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject:

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    Kaye didn't you say you went to a seminar or heard from someone that PG600 was determined to not be a super ovulator? Seems like we had that discussion last fall. Do you feel that it is? Well, I guess you do if you are cutting down the dosage. Just trying to get my facts straight. :wink:
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    Tracy in Idaho



    Joined: 04 Sep 2006
    Posts: 462
    Location: Southcentral Idaho
    Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Washing CIDR

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    Old Dominion wrote:
    Exactly how do you wash a CIDR?



    With a Novalsan solution :)

    Chris, I'd think the PG600 has to be having a big effect on ovulation -- Jonathan wouldn't have gotten multiple sets of quints otherwise!

    Tracy
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    Old Dominion



    Joined: 09 Apr 2007
    Posts: 21
    Location: Farnham, Virginia
    Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: CIDRs

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    I am getting ready to insert my first CIDRs. Please tell me what a “non irritating antiseptic solution” is for cleaning the applicator prior to insertion.

    I am assuming that a “suitable veterinary obstetrical lube” is the same lube we use for AI.

    Tracy told me to wash the CIDR in Novalsan solution prior to reuse. Does this mean dilute it? Do I need to rinse and air dry?

    I am not quite as bad as the people you have to tell to take the plastic off of the pizza prior to putting it in the oven. But, I want to do this correctly. Any tidbits you could tell me would be great.

    Thank you,

    Jolene
     

  3. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

    9,442
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    Re: CIDRs-ongoing

    Quote:
    non irritating antiseptic solution

    I dilute Nolvasan-S (concentrate) at 1 teaspoon per pint of water. When I'm inserting several does I will put the applicator under running water to clean it then dip the whole thing in the Nolvasan, shake really good,wipe dry with clean paper towel and use on the next doe. I pay special attention to the "tube" CIDR goes in.

    Quote:
    suitable veterinary obstetrical lube” is the same lube we use for AI.

    Yes. Either the veterinary version or K-Y Jelly (non-spermicidal).
    Quote:
    Does this mean dilute it? Do I need to rinse and air dry?

    Yes, to all 3 questions. I also wrap the tip of my applicator in a clean paper towel before returning to AI kit.

    I use betadine scrub to wash my used CIDRs in. Not actually scrub them....just lightly wiped,rinsed and back into zip lock bag and into the refrigerator until next use.

    Now, one of the important tips told me and I make sure on each one.....the tips (wings) of the CIDR need to go from side to side...not up and down when they are inserted. Also make sure you get them deep enough in the doe. I go up to the cross on the handle. Wrong side of the (whatever you call it) 1st muscle in the vaginal tract and they can come out.

    I just AI'ed two does today that I pulled CIDRs out of yesterday morning(Sat.). They were in standing heat at 5am this morning and mucous was right for breeding at 1pm.

    Yep, Tracy the 21 day pull, 19 day PG 600.

    Yes, Chris....I was told there were no super ovulation drugs in PG 600.??? But, why am I getting so many multiples with it's use?? Ask Vicki about that one...
    Kaye
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    Old Dominion



    Joined: 09 Apr 2007
    Posts: 21
    Location: Farnham, Virginia
    Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: PG 600 vs Lute

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    Am I reading this thread correctly that I can use either Lute or PG 600 prior to pulling CIDRs? If so, how long in advance to you need to give the meds.

    As always, Thank You!!!

    Jolene
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    Kaye White



    Joined: 04 Sep 2006
    Posts: 1645
    Location: Central Ark.
    Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject:

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    I have used two methods and actually found no difference in the time they came into heat.

    1. Give the hormone (either lute or PG 600) on day 19 from insertion and pull CIDRs on day 21.
    2. Give the hormone on day 21 at the a.m. milking and pull CIDRs at the PM milking. About 12 hrs. apart.
    Kaye
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    Cotton Eyed Does



    Joined: 05 Sep 2006
    Posts: 1700
    Location: New Waverly, Texas
    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject:

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    Kaye have you checked your records to see if by giving the hormone on day 19 it has any bearing on the number of ripe eggs dropped by the doe vs giving it on day 21?
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    Kaye White



    Joined: 04 Sep 2006
    Posts: 1645
    Location: Central Ark.
    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject:

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    Yep! Not one bit of difference. Both methods gave me twins & trips, in breeds that normally have singles and twins.
    Kaye
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    Cotton Eyed Does



    Joined: 05 Sep 2006
    Posts: 1700
    Location: New Waverly, Texas
    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    K just wondering. I have a doe that I am having trouble detecting heat cycles on. I think it might be because the only bucks I have here are young bucklings with one being HER buckling. Maybe she thinks it is insestuous to be rubbing and flagging up and down his fence line??!! Never had trouble before because she was all up on the fence with Lamont back there. If I can get a "sponge" guess I'll try that route with the 21 day protocol. Even thought I might drag my stinky (RANK) 2 year old boer buck and put him in the Alpine buck pen (and move the young Alpine boys first) to see if she would flirt with him.
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    Sondra



    Joined: 04 Sep 2006
    Posts: 3388
    Location: Azle, TX
    Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:30 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So if you don't see or they haven't cycled yet how do you know when to insert the CIDR? am assuming here that if you know then you would insert the 1st day after.
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    Kaye White



    Joined: 04 Sep 2006
    Posts: 1645
    Location: Central Ark.
    Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:27 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The object of the CIDR is to make the doe's system "think" she is bred. ie...it raises the progestrone level. So actually they have been put in at any time in the does cycle and it holds the progestrone level up until you remove it. Which drops the progestrone level forcing the doe to come into heat. In layman's terms.

    Does with silent or quiet heats...this works great on. Ask Vicki.

    I use CIDRs to get pre-season breedings (SWISS Breeds). I put them in about the last of July, 1st of August, then pull in 21 days. Worked again this year, as I have 1-Obie, 1-Togg bred from August AI breedings. Would have had a Saanen bred...but there was a mix up on semen. She got luted and bred to Saanen buck.
    Kaye
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    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians
    Site Admin


    Joined: 03 Sep 2006
    Posts: 3440
    Location: North of Houston Texas
    Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:02 am Post subject:

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    Kaye is correct, if not for Cidt's Shoofly would never kid, she has silent heats and no clues she is kidding in 5 minutes either. She must have hormones out of whack, but thank goodness, and it did freak me out a little waiting to find out, but she has not thrown any of this onto her daughters.

    Sondra just put the Cidr in and go, don't worry about what part of the cycle, with Shoofly there isn't any part of the cycle to guess she is in. I put the CIDR in her at the same time as 3 others were just out of heat. Vicki
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