bred does in poor condition

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by baileybunch, Jan 10, 2008.

  1. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    Not mine! Just wondering about a circumstance I am witnessing and what treatment options would be advised. Gently, please...

    Bred under 50 days, still in milk, thin, not eating well, sometimes loose stools, herbal and Pat Coleby methods.

    One doe was very ill a while back (thought to be entero, was "vomitting" brown, scouring, down goat), recovered was bred, dewormed with Ivomec Plus at less than 30 days bred, had a slight but possibly bloody discharge last week.

    They receive a good grain ration and good minerals.

    Would a fecal exam at this time of year give good evidence of parasite overload?

    What chemical dewormers would be effective yet safe for bred does?

    What else could be done to improve their condition?
     
  2. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    "Would a fecal exam at this time of year give good evidence of parasite overload?"

    Sure it would......in this particular case, if I didn't find much on the first fecal....I would run another one in a day or two.......if the fecals don't turn up at least some evidence of worm /cocci problems......then I would have to wonder if something cancerous is going on.

    How old of a doe are we talking about here??
     

  3. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    I try not to use wormers in first trimester but cydectin is safe for pg does.
    Beet pulp and alfalfa are the best for putting on more weight but does bred and still milking aren't going to improvein condition much until dry. A fecal is a must at this point.
     
  4. BlueHeronFarm

    BlueHeronFarm New Member

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    We were just talking about fecals the other day with the Carlsons.

    We posited that you wouldn't probably see much this time of year, as the cold freezes or suspends the haemonchus life cycle. They would not be ingesting anything active at this point and the existing worms in their system do not expend the energy laying new eggs, either, since they will not thrive in these conditions.

    That being said, they may have adult worms adding to the condition problem, but a fecal may not show anything. An eyelid check may give a better indication at this point.

    Not so sure about cocci life cycle...that may well still show in a fecal.
     
  5. Cotton Eyed Does

    Cotton Eyed Does New Member

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    Honestly if they are in a very poor condition they are not likely going to carry a pregnancy anyway, nor would I want to subject my doe's health to that stress when they are in bad shape for fear of losing the doe. I would really suggest to this person that they get a management plan. Or maybe you could write it down and just "happen" to share it with them. The things that you do several weeks BEFORE breeding the does, deworming, hoof trims, vaccinations, etc. Maybe next time they will be better prepared for breeding season. If I was in this situation. I would forego any possibility of a miscarriage because of using a dewormer and would put the doe's health at the forefront. I would have fecal samples done by the vet to see if there might be a problem with Cocci (adults can get it) and see what worm burdens show up. If they had worms I would deworm them with Cydectin and do it again in 10 days. I would make sure they were up to date on the vaccines, give them some vitamin shots and go from there.
     
  6. CGFarm

    CGFarm New Member

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    I would go ahead and worm them, but this sounds like the copper deficency we went through.
    Coppering them now isn't going to "fix" the problem at this point. It takes alot out of the does to be bred and producing. I am going to assume these girls are in MO? I am seeing ALOT of copper and Vit E def coming out of MO.
    I to would not worry about them carrying to term. First & foremost is the does health.
    If you want to PM me i have some pics of some copper Def does and i can send you some very detailed info on what we saw and what happened.
    As an example (Vit E) I purchased a doe out of Mo that was a daughter to one of our bucks.
    I purchased her as a yearling. She had kidded and was in milk when i got her. She was 87lbs. I dried her off so she could continue to grow. We couldn't seem to get her "over the hump". I gave her some Vit E and within one week she had jumped to 115lbs, within two weeks she was 130lbs.
    Denise
     
  7. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    The does referenced are not very old, two year olds maybe and a doeling. They do regularly recieve (Pat Coleby method) copper sulfate, dolomite (Cal/Mag), sulfer, kelp, yeast and a good whole grain diet. I do not know if they are getting alfalfa, nor do I know if they are receiving mineral salt. I did notice that all of her goats were licking my hands (and I was a stranger) and that brought the "salt" to my mind. I'm not sure if copper is the culprit here. Thanks for the suggestions, I look forward to hearing more.
     
  8. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    It's alot to take on in someone elses herd. Are they really going to listen, for you to expend the time, and are they going to expend the money to fix everything about what they do.

    We all know that 'graining' them means little. Does don't get into condition like this overnight, it is an ongoing program that gives you goats like yours or mine or their's.

    Worm and move them 12 hours out of their pens, worm again in 10 days and worm again...this will kill the lifecycle of most adult worms, I would use Cydectin for the first two wormings and then ivermectin for the last since it kills 4th stage arrested larve (in the goat). Cocci treat for 5 days, orally, the whole herd. Then start over with their feeding management. Lots of clean mold free grass hay in feeders up off the ground. Alfalfa in some form. Minerals with copper in them. And slowly moving them from the grain they are on to something real, or more of it. But mostly hay and alfalfa. Trim their feet, and clean out their barn and feeders of the moldy hay that likely brought on the entero or listerosis.

    The doe likely aborted, and certainly not from the worming. If they get the group in better condition perhaps they can breed the ones who slipped their pregnancy because of condition and feeding problems in the spring.

    But I don't waste alot of my time on questions, second hand, in the end they rarely listen, don't know us to know we mean well and know something, and aren't going to change anything because they perceive it will cost them too much money, when in the end, death is what costs you money. More milk, more meat and more kids from a good sound feeding program and overall management makes you money. Good luck with this, maybe they will listen and change. Vicki
     
  9. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    I thank you for taking the time to answer. If anything, if I am asked, I will have something useful to share. I am glad to have access to the group as I have learned much about managing my herd. While I have not yet gained the wisdom to identify problems on my own, I have learned where to seek information, guidance and support and the knowlege to double-check information, always. That is worth the time to me. And if I can help these people through you all, I am glad to. But I won't be approaching anyone and telling them what to do or what they should do or anything like that. I'm not so bold nor confident. Again, I would like to know in the event that I am asked to share.
     
  10. CGFarm

    CGFarm New Member

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    I have found in my copper research that copper sulfate is one source of copper they don't utilize/absorb as well as the other types of copper.
    I get calls all the time, so don't worry.VBG It may be as simple as needing a change in wormers and feed.
    There are tons of factors that go into play.
    If they have a load of worms it can deplete their mineral stores, creating a domino effect.
     
  11. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    Fecal exam by the vet's office came back "no worms". I want to confirm-use of Cydectin because it is more effective than Ivermectin against HC parasite? Will deworming now be effective in these winter months? Do parasites have a dormant stage which would cause the dewormer to be ineffective?

    I did find out that these does have a mixed alfalfa/grass hay, a heavy grain ration, no alfalfa pellets nor loose mineral salt.

    I am actually friend of a friend who is willing to help and educate with the other willing to learn. So, this is helpful.
     
  12. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    You just don't have alot of eggs on fecal during the winter months. Warm weather worms are blood suckers, cool weather worms eat the doe alive. They are seeing typical cool weather worm problems with the does skinny even with pouring the grain to them. I wish I could knock it into some folks heads that grain isn't going to make healthy goats, it makes fat goats without worm burdens, but not big goats.

    Cydectin is the best wormer out there, Ivermectin though does get adult worms and some arrested worms. Why I gave the advice I did. I wouldn't use both in a cocktail, although if they will use a cocktail, ivermectin and levamisole would be perfect for what they need. The only way they will see adult worms that are eating their goats is on necrospy once one dies.

    Without minerals out and limited alfalfa in the grass hay, and in this condition, they will continue with problems through hypocalcemia at the end of pregnancy and milkfever once they start milking, and weak kids. They have a good long time to turn this around but they have to start now. Vicki
     
  13. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    Thanks. I really appreciate this dialog. It is most helpful!
     
  14. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    I would worm with cydectin and then the ivormec plus in 10 days just like Vicki said above also they need alfalfa a goat not in good shape to begin with is not going to have enough calcium to grow out those babies and still be able to have enough strength to deliver them Read Sue Reith's article in Goat 101 abt hypocalcimia and ketosis
     
  15. baileybunch

    baileybunch New Member

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    Thank you all. I have read Sue Reith's articles and practice her principles on my own herd...even on my sheep and horses! I really appreciate everyone and everything shared here.
     
  16. Narrow Chance

    Narrow Chance New Member

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    "I wouldn't use both in a cocktail, although if they will use a cocktail, ivermectin and levamisole would be perfect for what they need. "

    Vicki.. could you explain this for me? I've used lavamisole.. but didn't know I could mix.
    There's not much info out there on lavamisole.. can it be used during pregnancy? if so.. at what trimester?

    Rettt
     
  17. stacy adams

    stacy adams New Member

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    I don't think giving a "cocktail" mean that the wormers are mixed, as in a cocktail, but that they are given at the same time, so that you are using full doses of two different classes of wormers to get what your after.
    Does that make sense?
     
  18. Cotton Eyed Does

    Cotton Eyed Does New Member

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    Mine are mixed in the same syringe. I suck up one and then suck up ther other one just watch the ccs on the side of the syringe and you'll get the correct dosages in there. Fill twice, hold and squirt once is my motto. After all it is going to the same place. :biggrin
     
  19. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature New Member

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    When I give a "cocktail", I use a separate syringe for each wormer. I draw up the full dose of the first wormer in one syringe, and then draw up a full dose of the second wormer with another syringe and then give them one after the other. I do it this way so that I won't cross contaminate my wormer with each other in their original containers AND because if a goat spits out or smears a dose, I can then just draw up another dose of the wormer that was wasted.
     
  20. Cotton Eyed Does

    Cotton Eyed Does New Member

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    I use that plastic aquarium tubing in my bottles of dewormer. I don't stick my syringe in the bottle. I poke a small hole in the foil that covers the top of the bottle and stick the plastic tube in. That way I just stick my syringe on the end of the tube and pull up the wormer.