Borderline equals positive in my book

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by homeacremom, Mar 22, 2008.

  1. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    :sigh What have I done?

    My Saanen FF came back borderline on the colostrum CAE (PAVLab). My other two tested negative again. The thing is this doe was raised on prevention in a group from her birth season. I bought her as a dry yearling and bred her here. She tested negative on the blood test when brought here. -Yeah I know they just class as positive when above a certain level.-
    Good thing I am on prevention and have been meticulous because of the udder lumps she also has. Still I am worried. How did this doe get exposed? Is heat treating colostrum, pasteurizing milk, raising separate, and being careful w/ birth fluids not enough? I guess I get to do a case study on my farm. :sniffle
    Now to decide what to do...can't sell her, can't use her milk for anything but kids until we get rid of these lumps http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,2540.0.html with the possibility of have very little production depending on the treatment needed... cut my losses and butcher her? keep her for another season or two and try to get kids and some milk to recoup costs? Depends on if I decide prevention is good enough protection. Never wanted this...
     
  2. Leo

    Leo New Member

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    I'm so sorry. Have you resent a blood/colostrum vial to WADDL for a second opinion yet?
    Hopefully someone more experienced can help you with figuring this out.
    Huggs!
    Megan
     

  3. Halo-M Nubians

    Halo-M Nubians New Member

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    If she were mine, I'd test again to confirm. Biotracking will give you titer #'s. If she is positive you will have to decide if the udder problems are a symptom..in which case she will probably continue to have problems and should be culled.

    I feel lucky not to have dealt with this, but with a very nice doe with excellent bloodlines, and non-symptomatic I think I would probably consider keeping her for kids...JMO
     
  4. stacy adams

    stacy adams New Member

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    When you say you can't use her milk for anything but kids, are you talking 4 legged ones? If so, and she were mine, I would rather drink the milk myself than give it to the babies, rather than risk them getting CAE. And yes, I agree with the consensus, get her retested by a different lab to confirm before doing anything rash.
     
  5. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    You always want a retest. For myself colostrum tests show you the truth. And I am not saying on blood at the same lab she won't test negative on blood....for awhile. I have seen this happen in my own herd. But she will turn positive eventually. Is her dam negative? Did you physically deliver this doe yourself so that she did not nurse...do you keep records to know this 100%. Talk to Dr. Glass, use a lab to it's potential, the reason I use PAVL is the relationship I have with him, now retest the doe for blood, they use Elissa there. I would also test via Colorado PCR (info in goatkeeping101). Vicki
     
  6. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    Mishael, I don't think the udder problems are directly related to her CAE status. Just doesn't match the descriptions of a CAE affected udder. It may be that her immune system is stressed causing more problems than she might have otherwise.
    Stacy, we drink our milk raw and with toddlers and myself nursing a baby I just don't want to use it for the house until I know for sure what's up with her udder. Good thought though...The goat kids are getting it pasteurized so it should be ok. I am very careful in following prevention protocols, especially so since I've suspected staph mastitis from the beginning. It's been two weeks so if it is not enough the damage is already done.
     
  7. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Yep so you can't be positive that everything was done to prevent CAE.
    I agree retest as Vicki told you and then you will know for sure.
     
  8. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    "Is her dam negative? Did you physically deliver this doe yourself so that she did not nurse...do you keep records to know this 100%. "
    No, her dam was positive and no, I bought her as a dry yearling on the word of the breeder that she was raised on prevention. I have no reason or feeling to suspect that the breeder lied to me. She is quite meticulous in taking care of her goats. I was in her barn watching several times and talked to her alot before deciding to buy. I saw the tests results for her whole herd the year I bought. All her yearlings were raised together and separate from the rest of the herd, but still I can't KNOW for sure.

    I will run blood tests, but I've already seen that a negative doesn't mean much. I'll use a lab that will give me titer #s for sure. Can't do another colostrum test until next year.

    Vicki, I'd like to know what you've found on kids born to +dams. If raised on prevention are their blood titers clear?

    I'll probably keep this doe for at least another year since it isn't like I have a bunch of other expensive animals. Eventually we are going to move onto a bigger farm and if I have to start over at that time that is just the way it is...All that will be lost is the work put into some great producing backyard goats and the emotional attachments :laughcry _yup I love those critters. Except for this FF they all are/have paid for themselves plus some.. I get a good chance to do a case study. I am keeping two doelings this year. One out of +dam and one out of a -dam both raised on the same pooled and pasteurized milk. I was at all the births- dams never even got near them. We'll see what comes of their CAE status and I can try to answer my own question...Is prevention protocol enough? :/
     
  9. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    First, I would send in another sample. There are many reasons why you can get a "suspect" /borderline. The test is looking for a certain protein that is found in CAE positive animals, but other proteins can mimic that.

    Kids that are raised on pastuerized milk from Positive animals can show a passive antibody Positive, that with further retesting comes back Negative. Don't throw the baby (or goat) out with the bath water! isolate her and handle her milk with care until you get this ironed out, yes. Make no dramatic decisions.

    We had a doe test suspect at 8 months of age, then Positive 1 month later. I trusted the breeder....tested her again 1 month after that and she tested negative. 3 months later, Negative again. Every year for last 3 years, NEGATIVE.
    If we had done what so many folks do, take the animal to the sale, Kateri wouldn't be here and I wouldn't know to double-check the tests so carefully.

    Have also received "suspects" back on pregnant Boer does (between 3-4 months bred seems to give WADDL fits)
    and the next test is always negative. And remains that way. Sometimes I just want to throw something at them! It is not precise like a pregnancy test!

    Hang in there. go through the steps.

    Camille
     
  10. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    It's stories, and test results like these above, that has convinced me that there are still a lot of unknowns out there about CAE, and the accuracy of some of these test for CAE are flaky at best.
    Goats either have it, or they don't. You either have HIV, or you don't.
    There still ain't no such thing as being a little bit pregnant either.

    I'm have my doubts that old 9 and 10 year old doe's, who all of a sudden show positive on a test, that never tested positive before, never had kids that tested positive, never had one symptom of CAE,..... ever had CAE to start with.
    CAE is a documented serious illness, and many of the effects of CAE is documented as well. Just as pregnancy leads to symptoms and a birth, and HIV leads to AIDS, symptoms, illness, and death......so should CAE work in similar ways in goats.
    I'm somewhat the skeptic, when it comes to results that are somewhere in between......and the evidence is not there to suggest such a thing is actually going on.

    Many will disagree to my approach with all these type things. You give me symptoms of such an illness, and the test results to back up a diagnosis......and it won't be going to the boiler with a bag of milk to heat treat to feed the baby's, or isolating old so and so to stay to themselves. It will be going over the hill with the ill goat in hand to the bone yard.

    Whim
     
  11. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Vicki, I'd like to know what you've found on kids born to +dams. If raised on prevention are their blood titers clear?
    .........................

    As long as I have tested I never chose to deal with CAE like this. I never used colostrum or milk from tested positive does. They were milked for the dairy but their milk was not used on the clean side. You have to remember the different climate back then though...we only had AGID testing which was so unreliable, and lots of folks were killing their whole herd. I was 'lucky' in that I had the dairy so I had a dirty barn and then a dirty stall in which to keep does like this. I used cattle colostrum for the first couple of years to even have enough colostrum, because my dirty dairy stall consisted of champions who folks wanted kids out of including myself, and my few clean does I had...and back then I eventually only felt you were clean if I raised you myself. I still do this protocoal here and it reflects in my contract, you aren't clean or guaranteed passed the front gate, unless I raised you myself, so they carry my herd name.

    We also know that goats do not carry antibody to their kids via the placenta like human moms do, infected their kids in utero with virus or even with HIV. But we also know that we had does who were positive after only kidding out of positive dams. Even with super gluing teats (I was reemed about this practice, but I had many many does take their teat tape off right at labor, not touching it for days before). But for me using lute is what saved me. Even today, I will not sell a kid who nurses their dam...you just can't do this to your reputation.

    For myself it isn't the lab you choose to test with as much as the consistancy of testing, actually doing the testing so you know the status of the girls. I only use WSU for sales, because they are just such an irritation to me, that nothing has changed with the information we know after all the hundreds of thousands of goats being tested through their labs, no money goes to research?

    Testing kids is of course going to show you that you have tested positive colostrum, even though the kid will then test negative if the colostrum was heat treated correctly as yearlings. Testing anything under a year old is only giving you the status of the herd she came from, not the status of the kid herself as an adult.

    But it do think does who test positive as older stock, usually after a move, have always been positive. Few goats actually convert, and when they do it is always after an obvious conversion from blood....blood products, a dog attack etc.

    And why my arguement for colostrum testing...and my answer to the vet naysayers is always the same...what haven't our vets poo pooed the ideas we have had, even vets who are goat specialists...Dr. Bowen still Poo Poo's all of Sue Reiths hypocalcemia info. Many many top vets poo pooed all of Joyce's copper stuides until the liver biopsies started coming in and debunking the idea that you could get reliabel results on blood. The number one mode of transmission in goats is colostrum, not milk, not blood...so why not test it? Course I have never been one to follow along like sheeple. Cause WSU says so is meaningless to me.

    I would follow through with this doe, testing blood and then PCR her, it's what I do on incoming stock. And it's what I would do if I was in your position with a doe like this. And I am not saying anything against the person you brought her from, but her having positive stock is enough of an answer. Vicki
     
  12. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    What's PCR stand for? Want to make sure I understand ;).

    This breeder DID sell the positive does to a dairy after she kidded them out so she was trying. I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression.
     
  13. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    A DNA name....polynesse..chain...reaction :) Look up the lab it will tell you :) It's in goatkeeping 101.

    OK I looked it up :) Polymerase chain reaction Vicki
     
  14. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    Thanks.
     
  15. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    In my experience, if you separate kids at birth and feed heat-treated/pastuerized milk and colostrum...the kids stay negative even out of a positive dam. My case is....a 4 year old doe, tested positive as long as I've had her (3 years). I have a 2 yr old daughter in my herd that has (so far) tested negative, latest results in Dec. 2007. However, this is one case and it remains to be seen if the 2 yr old will stay negative as she gets older. The older doe is from excellent bloodlines, good milker and had a beautiful udder.

    That's why I take the risk...to me it's worth it. To some it would not be. In the next few years I am planning to get rid of all my positive does (3) but I want the bloodlines to work with so am waiting to get kids from all of them. I am very strict about pastuerizing, and do my absolute best to not let the dam even lick the kids.

    I may be surprised in a few years and have a whole bunch more positive adults...but at this point I keep both positive and negative together and so far in 3 years none of the my negative adults have converted.
     
  16. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Beth do you heat treat and pasteurise positive does' colostrum and milk? Vicki
     
  17. Bethany

    Bethany New Member

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    So if pasturizing kills the CAE virus, why wouldn't it be okay to a positive goats milk to the kids?? If it dosen't, then what is the point of pasturizing if you are only using it from the negatives?
     
  18. Patty13637

    Patty13637 New Member

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    Because we are human and machines fail. If we make a timing mistake when pasterizing or the equiptment fails then we can pass along the virus.


    Patty
     
  19. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    In talking about this in depth with others who moved from nearly all positive to negative, the key was in not heat treat colostrum from positive does. I wish others who faught this fight back in the late 80's and 90's felt freer to talk about what we discussed in club meetings and privately, but alas...I know I loose sales to new folks who know I even at one time had CAE or CL on my place no matter how long ago it was.

    Alot of older breeders (not old, just gals a guys with goats for along time) won't even admit to ever having CAE, which is just about impossible, considering we didn't even know what it was until the late 80's. I think a whole lot of breeders forget what it is like to be new. And on the other hand having your posts, when you do admit things like this, forwarded all over the internet out of context...it's no darn wonder the major breeders remain quiet. You are all stuck with us 'backyard' breeders :) :) Vicki
     
  20. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    So while we are talking so openly about this what do you do with a CAE doe?

    Like Whim said- to the bone yard? How can you ethically pass this on to anyone?
    Seems like you would almost HAVE to have a clean setup and a dirty setup as Vicki calls it.
    If the blood tests are not reliable except for colostrum why has everyone made that the measure of a clean animal? What a conundrum! Lots of contradictory info out there.
    I have spoken to vets who say that the progress of the disease is still a mystery because there is little money for extended goat studies. Most research funding is concentrated on dairy cows or if for goats then mostly meat goats.

    Lee