Birth to building a rumen a story!

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by FRW, Nov 15, 2008.

  1. FRW

    FRW New Member

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    A old friend who was a cow dairy man for 65 years that had sold out in the gov't buy out.He was at the local sale barnand had just unloaded his last load of steer he had raised from his dairy herd.He was walking around outside the barn and saw them unloading a beautiful herd of Nubian's.They were Pure Bred Nubian's and were brought in by the sister to the Lady who owned them. The sister was in an bad car accident and had to sale the whole herd.Because she had no one to help her with the animals.
    He decided to buy them all and brought home 10 mature does in milk and 9 yearlings due to kid with in the next 30 days and 2 mature bucks.He paid all the fees and was able to get ADGA paperwork on them also-thinking what do I need this for.
    When he returned home the first thing he did was milk the pour does who needed milking yesterday.He looked at paper work and put collars on the does so he would know who was who and the bucks were put up in a barn. He started adapting part of his cattle operation now to dairy goats not knowing what he was going to do with the milk!!!.
    He had kept a few heifers to freshen that he had sold to a neighboring dairy once fresh and thought he would raise them on goats milk when the heifers calved.
    Well the 10 heifers calved and he ended up with 8 jersey/brangus mix heifers and 1 bull calf. He started the calves out on a bucket system and had small pens for each calf to go into to receive their milk from the bucket then they were turned out into a large area for exercise. He had plenty of milk for the calves and was able to add a 3rd feeding at noon to the calves .
    Well with in the next few wks the other does kidded and the kids got collars also to mark their identity.The kids(25 kids were born 20 does 5 bucks) and they were put into pens with a lambar system, taught them to drink and started treating then exactly like he had always raised his dairy calves for 65 years.
    Here we go take note!!!

    1.The first week he offered milk 3 to 4 times a day as needed (depending on how much they were consuming).
    2.Then the second he started offering Calf Manna 1/4 lb per head or what was being cleaned up from AM to PM and PM to AM.
    3 Then start of the 3rd week he still offered calf manna and added his high quality grass hay for them to start nibling on and by day 5 of that week they were eating a good amount of hay so he increased the Calf Manna to 1/3 of a pound per head.(again still only what they will clean up)
    4.The 4th week he offered still the milk 3 times a day increasing the amount slowly over the week. also increased the calf manna to 1/2 lb with the high quality hay and they were looking just as well as his calves were looking and thought I guess I am doing ok.
    5. The 5 week he added 1/2 lb of a 16 percent creep pellet with a decoxx med in it and still continued the calf manna at 1/2 lb and still free choice high quality hay.
    6 The sixth week he keep all of his feed and milk at the same levels but added alfalfa hay in a different hay rack. The kids took to it like candy. Still consuming the calf manna and the 1/2 lb of the 16 percent medicated creep feed.
    7. By week 7 they were well on there way to forming their rumen and growing by leaps and bounds. He increased the milk as it became available.He also increased the 16 percent pellet to 2/3 of a lb per kid leaving the calf manna at 1/2 lbs per day.The alfalfa was gradually increased to free choice as well as the high quality grass hay was free choice. Other feeds were adjusted and increased as the kids grew with time and age.
    I have heard this story many times from the older gentlemen about slowly developing a rumen and how important it was.The old tail that a hand fed calf or goat does not developer the rumen as fast as dam raised because of the lack of the parent interaction and them eating with the parent is not completely false but there are ways to help speed up the rumen development safely.
    He was my mentor and I learned to raise my first orphan calves using nurse cows from this man 25 years ago.
    The calf manna contributes to the rumen development and the kids health in more ways than we will ever really know.
    One year I raised 125 orphan calves and they never were allowed to eat the first pelleted feed until they could consume 1 lbs of calf manna a day per calf.
    It is ea little expensive but worth every penny,the vitamins,mineral,probiotics and feed value you get out of it is a necessity to naturally developing a rumen.I personally use Milk Plus pellets they are a little smaller and the kids can eat them easier.

    The lady who had the wreck eventually was able to return to the sale barn to find out who bought her goats!! In hopes of being able to find one or 2 that she could recover.
    When she called and arrived to see the animals she was amazed to see them more beautiful than ever and said in her 10 years of milking goats and raising kids she had never seen her kids that beautiful. She was still in therapy but was given the option to buy any and all of the does and or bucks that she wanted back.
    She spent allot of time learning from this now 86 year old man whom I have know 25 years and never knew he had milked goats until he told me of this story and how he raised the kids the same way he had raised his orphan calves(of course in smaller feed quantities). He is still raising only st ocker cows with calves at age 94 but still ruining the 300 acre ranch where the old dairy barn still sits,

    The main thing we always do is never give the kids any type of feed until they are able to consume 1/2 to 2/3 of a lb of Milk Plus pellets for 7 to 10 days and hay.Then we introduce a 16 percent medicated decox pellet to them still adding the decox to the milk.
    Our kids are not forced on feed but gradually do it on there own, Some actually wean themselves from milk before 3 mths of age.But we still offer it until 4 mths of age.
    We have no problem with kids at 6 mths weighing 80 to 90 lbs and being of breeding age for the following year.
    Just thought I would share about the Milk Plus/Calf Manna rumen starter.
    I am sure everyone is all ready for kidding season to kick off.. Now something else to think about.
     
  2. Truly

    Truly New Member

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    Thank you for this interesting information. I'm anxious to see what the others on here have to say. It's always nice to see strong healthy kids in the spring.
     

  3. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Very interesting.
     
  4. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    Hhhmmm...basically the same feed program as I use, except, I use a manna knock off-same ingredients- lots cheaper. And I use a 16% horse pellet without medication. I don't trust what is put in goat/cow pellets. I use decoxx in the milk from day 4-5 and do fecals at day 20 to make sure it's keeping the coccidia in check. If not, I will treat accordingly. Hay-the kids are offered free choice alfalfa 24/7 and grass hay when they are older.

    LOL...I KNOW Ken is going to come on here and "preach"...you're feeding a rumen regardless of the animal around it. Have just heard it over and over...AND HE'S RIGHT, once again!
    Kaye
     
  5. paulaswrld

    paulaswrld New Member

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    Good article Floyd. Kaye, what is the manna knock off you use?

    Thanks,
    Paula
     
  6. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    Made by Tindle feeds-Calf Aid.
    Kaye
     
  7. Theresa

    Theresa New Member

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    This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
    Theresa
     
  8. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    animax is the knock off I use
     
  9. tiger408

    tiger408 Guest

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    thanks for posting this... we'll have kids for the first time in the spring (hopefully)... planning on bottle feeding them and the more information on nutrition and growth the better :)
     
  10. shawhee

    shawhee Member

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    :yeahthat

    Same here. Will be my first year kidding and I found this very informative and helpful!

    Thanks,
    Shawna
     
  11. OH Kaye...you just know me TO WELL...to think that I would say that. But, you are right that is just want I would say. :rofl


    Ken
     
  12. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Where is Ken's old post on this? The one on hay feeding kids and how a rumen is better built on grain? I know kids actually prefer ground feeds like SBM then you can move to a small pellet. Ken now don't be shy :) vicki
     
  13. Well...that is basically they way we have raised calves and kids for years. But, the one thing that I would like to point out in the way you are feeding is...where is the water? They have found the Fastest way to stunt growth is not having water out for them. Yes, you are feeding milk...but that is not the same as good ole water. They will start drinking some water by the end of the first week. That is VERY important since, they need it to digest the feedstuff that you are putting into them.

    Also, I dont feed hay before 8 weeks of age. Since that is the time the rumen will start to develop. Before that stage they are monogastics...just as humans are. So, they are not able to break down the cell walls of plant materials. That is why, those cheap sale barn calves will have potbellies. Cause they have been given hay that they can not break down.

    The grain that we fed was just a simple mix. I have tried the calf mannas and the knock offs. But, just to find most of the time you are buying wet molasses. And that sours fast if not fed right away. So, the simple mix that I have used for years is just cracked corn, SBM and a little rolled oats. Don't ask for weights since it was 3 coffee cans of corn to 1/2 SBM oats. We mixed it in a wheelbarrow as we was feeding. If they was not growing that well then we would up to the SBM some...in winter we upped the corn more.

    Ken
     
  14. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    OK so what is SBM?
     
  15. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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  16. homeacremom

    homeacremom New Member

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    Ok, so what exactly is the carb/protein/fat ratio in calf manna? What's the component that builds the rumen?

    Ken, do you know what % protein the 3 corn to half SBM and 1/2 oats mix is? Does it matter?

    I know my kids like to pick the corn in the little bit of grain mix they get on top of free choice alfalfa pellets...
    Thanks I'm finding this helpful.
     
  17. SBM is Soybean meal. That is just a fast way to say it. Also, if you look close at times that is what they put on feed tickets.

    The mix that I feed is not that high in Protein. That i do know, I have never sat down and figured it out but look at it roughly 18% I would guess. Just looked back at it...I told what it by mistake wrong...its 3 parts corn, ONE part Soybean meal (SBM) and half part oats. But, you have to remember I can get away with feeding a lower protein grain mix since I feed a 38% protein milk replacer.

    Also Floyd...why in god green earth are you feeding Milk to 4 month olds. If they are big enough for breeding that fall you are going might get fatty udders that way. That is the fast way out of my herd is to freshen with fatty udders. No room to produce milk, and that is the name of the game. The max that I will feed milk is 3 months, and that thing better have a good reason to get it that long.

    Ken
     
  18. mamatomany

    mamatomany New Member

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    Has anyone done any research on soybean meal. I have posted some information that I read, but nobody responded to it. I just wonder why so many dairy people are feeding soy, when the findings are that it is not good for ruminants?
     
  19. paulaswrld

    paulaswrld New Member

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    This is when I start to get confused?? I thought that best case scenario is that we do not want to wean until 16 weeks at the earliest ... Also, I have a couple of Dam raised kids out in the barn right now that were born in April and they are still hitting up mom.. I thought that was a good thing? Both these lids are show does and each received their dry leg this year...my daughter will not be happy with me if my management gives them "fatty udders" .

    Always learning,

    Paula